stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
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Posted on Feb 01 2016 04:26 PM
Apache, Man of Mystery.
I realize of course that a huge aspect of his sound will be both his touch and vibrato and the echo is integral as well.
But, speaking of raw Guitar - Amp combination - aside from specifics (pup types, string gauges, oxygen-free cable inductance...), will a Vox AC15 get you most of the way there?
Obviously a Strat. But what percentage of the sound is the Vox versus, say how much the Meazzi (sp?) echo unit imparts to the tone.
IOW, could a Strat with the right Echo and "any old amp" get you closer to the tone, or will a Strat "with any old echo" and an AC15 get you closer to the tone.
Now, understand I know the echo could have a pretty big impact, and I'm assuming there's at least some tonal coloration going on in the unit.
But would the Vox AC15 get me most of the way there with a decent echo that captures the "vibe" of his echo (number of repeats, fall off, rate, etc.)
I couldn't find any straight guitar to amp AC15 demos that weren't people trying to crank it. MArvin's tone has a bit of grit, but it ain't a "blues tone" like these people are trying to get out of the amp!
I did see one guy whose vids got really close to the sound, but he was using a Pod and I'm not sure if there was amp sim before it hit the vox or not (TVS ehco unit).
But if you know of other vids to link me to, please feel free to refer.
TIA,
Steve
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IvanP
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10328
southern Michigan
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Posted on Feb 01 2016 05:38 PM
Steve, go here to get more info: http://shadowmusic.bdme.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=61&sid=584b08830bd08972670e94abab51bc76
In a nutshell: there are 10,000+ theories and answers to your questions - as many as there are guitarists that have tried to capture Hank's sound! To my ears Hank himself has sounded like a fairly weak imitation of the '60s Hank since at least the '80s! So, what chance do the rest of us have??? 
I'll say this: for those very early Shadows songs such as Apache and Man of Mystery, almost certainly the most important factor (that is, outside of the 18-year-old Hank's heart, soul and fingers) was the Abbey Road studio itself. And good luck recreating that! 
— Ivan
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11019
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Feb 01 2016 07:45 PM
IvanP wrote:
I'll say this: for those very early Shadows songs such as Apache and Man of Mystery, almost certainly the most important factor (that is, outside of the 18-year-old Hank's heart, soul and fingers) was the Abbey Road studio itself. And good luck recreating that!
Actually, my mixing engineer has a plug-in for that, I shit you not.
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
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murph
Joined: Dec 16, 2010
Posts: 336
Chapel Hill, NC
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Posted on Feb 01 2016 11:15 PM
Steve posed some great observations and questions about St. Marvin's tone and overall sound. Yes, Hank Marvin's tone is super elusive and sought after by many. To me, The Shadows have always sounded so amazing due to the song-writng/arrangement and great playing by all involved.
But if ever there was a single tone or effect that stands out to me as the signature Hank Marvin "sound" it would have to be echo. Of course "tone is in the hands", but I think that the actual amp and guitar details have less of an impact on an overall approximation of Hank's tone (or at least the sound so many folks seem to chase).
I was recently on the hunt for a Strymon El Capistan. I didn't have any sort of echo/delay and I knew it could also get reasonably close to a Hank Marvin type echo. Morphball always sounds amazing when he plays Apache live and his youtube demo of The Savage definitely gave me confidence in making a purchase.
So I got the thing unboxed and it took about a week or so before I found the secret decoder ring for dialing in a few Hank settings. Once I did, I was absolutely blown away by the tone hitting my ears... holy crap, there it was! The next thing I knew I had a verse to a song and within a few weeks I put together a little demo to share with the guys in El Mirage.
Now, to my earlier point, I'm playing through a Johnny Marr Jag (not a Strat) and I'm not playing through a Vox (or any amp for that matter). It's basically Jag -> Strymon -> Texotica Reverb (3-3-3-ish setting) -> USB interface -> Garageband (with no amp modeling or other intentional signal processing).
In no way shape or form do I think my writing/playing is in the same area code, much less ballpark as Hank or ANY of the Shadows, but I am utterly amazed at how one small piece of gear can approach Hank's sound and even provide some inspiration. So before spending a ton of money on guitars, amps, and vintage echo units with moving parts, I'd humbly suggest checking out a few of the excellent echo units that are out there.
I'm a complete hack guitarist, but you can check out the aforementioned demo Chasing Shadows over on reverbnation. Best of luck in your tone-quest!
-murph
— http://www.reverbnation.com/elmiragesurf
http://www.reverbnation.com/aminorconspiracy
"I knew I was in trouble when the Coco-Loco tasted like water!" -- morphball
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palo
Joined: Apr 23, 2012
Posts: 421
fresno california u.s.a.
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Posted on Feb 01 2016 11:48 PM
Steve why not work on getting your sound not hanks ?
Last edited: Feb 02, 2016 01:11:13
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da-ron
Joined: Jan 02, 2009
Posts: 1303
The original Plymouth, UK.
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 04:32 AM
There's a guy here in Plymouth that busks in the city centre playing Shadows tunes to a backing track. Very convincing tone, definitely not using an AC15 as he's using batteries.
My bass player approached him once and asked him if he played any surf music. "Nah, that's a really hard sound to get..." he replied.
So maybe there are guys over on the shadows forum trying to work out how to get the weird drippy sound on surf tracks....
— http://thewaterboarders.bandcamp.com/
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Frelonvert
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
Posts: 275
Toulouse
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 06:34 AM
You can try the 2 delay pedals thing (see vids or others on youtube).
If think it is the cheapest way to get close to that sound.
— http://noskons.bandcamp.com/
Last edited: Feb 02, 2016 06:35:29
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 07:51 AM
da-ron wrote:
So maybe there are guys over on the shadows forum trying to work out how to get the weird drippy sound on surf tracks....
I like your parallel universe thing.
Mechanical stuff here: Strat, El Capistan echo, AC10.
Intangibles: More use of upstrokes, pulling the vibrato arm (remembering vibrato actually raises the pitch slightly), learning how the different echo machines actually worked so as to adjust the El Cap (and listening to Ivan when he talks about bass rolloff). Shadows music not a consuming fire, just an enjoyment, makes me happy.
Depends on to what degree one is willing to go; I got a pretty passable sound out of a Fender amp & an EchoPark clone for awhile. (But the El Cap was a quantum leap forward short of buying a pedal dedicated to being loaded with Shadows echoes.)
That Shadows forum ref'd above is a good resource if you're taking a dive off the high-board.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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da-ron
Joined: Jan 02, 2009
Posts: 1303
The original Plymouth, UK.
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 08:09 AM
Personally, his 80s stuff put me off instrumental guitar music for a very very long time. I hated that sound!
Recently, a local radio station played a very rare track of them playing live with Cliff back in the early 60s and o my word, did they rock! It sounded awesome.
— http://thewaterboarders.bandcamp.com/
Last edited: Feb 02, 2016 08:10:17
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stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 07:23 PM
murph wrote:
In no way shape or form do I think my writing/playing is in the same area code, much less ballpark as Hank or ANY of the Shadows, but I am utterly amazed at how one small piece of gear can approach Hank's sound and even provide some inspiration. So before spending a ton of money on guitars, amps, and vintage echo units with moving parts, I'd humbly suggest checking out a few of the excellent echo units that are out there.
Thanks Murph.
I had the same kind of epiphany trying to capture Van Halen's famous "Brown Sound". The key ingredients in that is using a Phaser before the Dirt, then an Echoplex type echo after the dirt, into a plate reverb.
Pow, there it is. For years I (we) always read about the Plexi with the attneuator and so on and so forth, but really what captures the "vibe", if not the tone specifically, are those essential ingredients.
And I did use a "generic" dirt pedal so it didn't have the tone of EVH, but with the other elements added, it's definitely a passable sound.
In Marvin's case, yes - you slap the echo on there, you're 90 percent of the way there. In fact, we can say that about a lot of stuff - Pipeline and it's drippy reverb - I suppose you can't play that - what is it - 1,000 Pound Bee or something without a good Fuzz!
But I still wonder how much more the amp would add to narrow it down that much further.
I actually ran through my Champion 600, Pro Junior, and Twin Reverb last night just to compare "base tone" and see if any of those had the elements that would get that much closer to the sound. I may use a pedal model (which is what I do for echo) to get the tonal characteristics I want.
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stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 07:30 PM
palo wrote:
Steve why not work on getting your sound not hanks ?
Oh, I have my own tone and playing style. Not that it's magical or anything, but I'm very happy with it. It's as "me" as anything gets.
But I learn by figuring out what other people did to achieve their sounds. And obviously, certain things can be springboards for experimentation, or merit incorporation into one's personal style in whatever messed up final form it takes.
IOW, I see "tone influences" as as important as "song influences", "band influences" and "stylistic influences".
How's that for using "as" that many times in close proximity!
If I have a sound in my head, and I'm familiar with the possibilities of various effects, playing techniques, etc. and I hear a sound in my head, I more quickly know how to get that because all of the other players have done the trial and error for me 
It's also a fun distraction. A challenge. I do the same thing with synthesizer sounds.
And I also work in cover and tribute bands where having a convincing tone can be a positive attribute. If I worked on my own tone in isolation, I might come up with a very unique tone and style, but, if I'm called on to play something that needs a Marvin style echo, I have the skill set to emulate it without having to start from total scratch.
So I learn music by others, and create my own, and I learn tones from others, and create my own. And while that may not generate a unique tone and style, it suits my needs and makes me happy.
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stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 07:33 PM
IvanP wrote:
Steve, go here to get more info: http://shadowmusic.bdme.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=61&sid=584b08830bd08972670e94abab51bc76
Thanks Ivan.
And here I thought this site was ultra niche and uber nerdy!
Please, if there's a Ventures forum like that, don't tell me!
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stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 07:37 PM
Badger wrote:
Intangibles: More use of upstrokes,
A-ha - you know, funny you should mention that because I just happened to be playing a little the other night and doing a lot of upstrokes and kind of paying attention to the difference in sound.
Ideally, I've always wanted ups and downs to be more consistent, but in practice, I'm lazy, and angle the pick in a way, and play in a way that generally makes the upstrokes sound different than the down strokes (I think it might be a slight pulling away from the string rather than a "pushing through" or "pushing down" on the string).
You said AC10 though...
Key ingredient? Or just any old 10 watt amp...
You know, they always say Voxes have that "chime".
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blackheartsfan
Joined: Jun 13, 2009
Posts: 274
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 08:39 PM
Don't know if anyone else has caught it but at 6am this morning one of our cable TV stations (I think it was "THIS TV") aired the original "Thunderbird's Are Go" 1966 puppet movie. Cast included Cliff Richard, Hank Marvin and The Shadows performing "Shooting Star". If you get THIS TV network check your listings or the online station guide as they often replay the movies within the next few weeks.
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blackheartsfan
Joined: Jun 13, 2009
Posts: 274
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Posted on Feb 02 2016 08:40 PM
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WetWildWest
Joined: Dec 12, 2014
Posts: 23
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Posted on Feb 03 2016 05:08 AM
Different people hear and/or like different things in Hank's sound, and there are so many factors at play it's fairly easy to lose sight of the big picture.
My favourite Hank sound, the one that "rang my bell" and made me want to start playing guitar is the Apache/Man of Mystery/The Stranger sound. Back then it was AC15, Meazzi, Strat with heavy roundwound, roundcore nickel strings, hit hard with a heavy pick for that "spank". One often overlooked aspect when trying to recreate the sound is that the AC15 preamp was hit pretty hard by the Meazzi preamp, even with the AC15 at low volume it would have that "grit" or "edge".
A little over 10 years ago I had a euro-instro cover band named The StratoCats and for some reason our little promo-page is still alive on Angelfire (even though I haven't logged in since like 10 years). You can listen to some Shadows tunes we recorded. I'm saying this because the gear I used wasn't exactly "correct": a '64 Fender Bandmaster with a Dan-Echo. I did use a '62 reissue Strat though. Link: http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/stratocats/
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www.facebook.com/konbuexpress
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4536
Wisconsin
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Posted on Feb 03 2016 06:23 AM
stevel wrote:
You said AC10 though...
Key ingredient? Or just any old 10 watt amp...
You know, they always say Voxes have that "chime".
I didn't mean the AC10 specifically & the power level has nothing to do with it. Only mentioned because I have one. Like having a 10w version of a top-boost channel on the others that actually works, with a 10" speaker that works as well. The key point, however, is that the Vox tone stack has a different character to it.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
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Posted on Feb 03 2016 07:51 PM
blackheartsfan wrote:
Don't know if anyone else has caught it but at 6am this morning one of our cable TV stations (I think it was "THIS TV") aired the original "Thunderbird's Are Go" 1966 puppet movie. Cast included Cliff Richard, Hank Marvin and The Shadows performing "Shooting Star". If you get THIS TV network check your listings or the online station guide as they often replay the movies within the next few weeks.
HULU has Thunderbirds I think.
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stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
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Posted on Feb 03 2016 07:53 PM
WetWildWest wrote:
One often overlooked aspect when trying to recreate the sound is that the AC15 preamp was hit pretty hard by the Meazzi preamp, even with the AC15 at low volume it would have that "grit" or "edge".
yes, that's kind of what I'm getting at. So it's not the amp busting out that's causing the edge, but the Meazzi becuase essentially, you're running a pre-amp into a pre-amp!
BTW, checked out Apache and yeah, while the sound is not exact, it's got the "character" -
Some of my delay models have "coloration" the original pre-amps included, but IIRC none of the models that have this also have the multi-tap echoes...so I'll probably have to use some kind of drive model to add a little grit or edge and thin it out to match the character.
Last edited: Feb 03, 2016 19:56:02
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Clarry
Joined: Oct 01, 2014
Posts: 519
Streatham, London
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Posted on Mar 01 2017 11:13 AM
Some nice pics and info on this site.
Didn't see if there was a link above, but I don't have my Hank reading glasses on..
(http://tvsspecialtyproducts.com/phone/hank-s-guitars.html)
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