I think i know what you mean,
this may not be the answer your looking for
but i've been thinking of what falls
into a surf category and what doesn't
i think a true artist creates a style
and the people put them in the genre they want.
actually surf has so many categories within the genre.
bottom line compose what your heart tells you
and worry not what genre you are
the people will genre you themselves.
i don't think the inventor knew he invented surf music
he just did it.

stevel wrote:

Now, I've tried my hand at writing various pre-existing styles in which I'm interested, including SW and Surf tunes. But as soon as I start using these "expected elements" I start feeling like I'm just throwing a bunch of cliches together.

But if I start writing a surf song, it's probably gonna have that standard snare pattern, and Am - G - F - E chord progression, and so on...

That's probably how most people on here (well, at least myself) have started out in songwriting. Copying and then step by step altering things to (hopefully) get something less generic in the end.

What extremely helped me in this process was getting to know more and more surf music. The more obscure stuff of the orginal era shows that surf music from the beginning was very diverse and took in influences from all over the place. It's not really the chords, melodies or the rhythms that define surf music: Pretty much anything can become surf music, when it is played the right way.

For further reading on the subject I recommend:
https://surfguitar101.com/news/story/31/

Los Apollos - cinematic surf music trio (Berlin)
"Postcards from the Scrapyard" Vol. 1, 2 & 3 NOW available on various platforms!
"Chaos at the Lobster Lounge" available as LP and download on Surf Cookie Records!

I think Pastiche is a good way to put it, though imitation is at the root of it. However imitation sounds so limiting, while it really is not. I think the bottom line is that a strong melody and a good arrangement makes the song, regardless of what clothes you dress it in. I would think if you took this same song and played it with a death metal treatment, it would have a similar result to what you get with the Surf treatment, only it would appeal more to people who listen to death metal. But that being said, Surf itself was invented via a type of imitation, due to the fact that all of the early surf bands idolized the Ventures without exception, and the Ventures were adapting modern pop songs to an instrumental style! Case in Point is Eddie and the Showmen playing "Then He Kissed Me".

Jeremy

Thanks all.

I have used the word "pastiche" in the past as well for "cliche" and "homage"...sometimes I'm not sure if readers get my meaning with that word but it appears the posters here had some good book learnin!

I think in art, we use the term as the Wiki article defines it.

You hear it thrown about fairly frequently with respect to classical (concert, chamber, orchestral) music.

I'm glad though that some of you feel the same way, or at least understand what I mean. I think I just need to do what I initially said and simoncoil echoed (pun intended) - listen to more diverse things so I know what the entire genres entail, and not just the "cliched" elements.

This is actually true in classical music - young composers want to compose like Mozart, and they've heard that first piano sonata in C, so they start with the Alberti Bass and throw a melody on top. But that's only one very small aspect of what Mozart did - so they ain't even close - at all.

If I were to do this, it would be intended as an homage (who knows if I'd be successful) but I would want to avoid the cliches, and go for the "meat" of the genre. I've studied plenty of classical music so I understand more of what makes Mozart Mozart than a lot of people - so I need to take that same approach with any other style.

Steve
i was thinking it would be cool to do a mixture
of classical and surf but i was thinking more like
paganini cause i play violin .
imagine
this piece converted to a surf style allegro.

Last edited: Jan 27, 2016 00:08:34

palo wrote:

Steve
i was thinking it would be cool to do a mixture
of classical and surf but i was thinking more like
paganini cause i play violin .
imagine
this piece converted to a surf style allegro.

I think that would be cool.

I suppose, you can mix some styles and they "work", but some others might be a juxtaposition that might come off as comedic when not intended to.

I think of "Hayseed Dixie" that does bluegrass versions of AC/DC songs. They mean it to be funny, and it is, but actually they're very adept players and very clever at making the songs work in that style.

But I could imagine stuff like a "Surfin Fugue" or "Surf Concerto" and so on. We already know that the surf/spy style guitar found a home in motion picture soundtracks that, while often jazz-infused, were still very "orchestral". I think it could work quite well.

Totally throwing caution to the wind here. I've been a huge fan of Ennio Morricone's work for a long time, but I never set out to write/record/play anything in his style. One day, I was strumming on the couch and stumbled on a little chord progression that sounded somewhat spaghetti-western-ish. It took nearly a month to put together a demo of what I was hearing in my head and what I discovered along the way.

Call it "pastiche", call it "period", call it a "tribute", whatever. I think if you can find inspiration in another composer's work, or a musician's style, and still create something original, it's all good. And for the record, I'm a total Federale fanboy, even though I live on the other side of the continent and have never seen them in person. Maybe one of these days!

I don't want to sound cocky, but I guarantee that the electric guitar tone you hear in this recording is very, very, reminiscent of much of Morricone's work. Totally open to debate though, so have a listen and feel free to share your opinion.

Legends of Tabernas on reverbnation.

-murph

http://www.reverbnation.com/elmiragesurf
http://www.reverbnation.com/aminorconspiracy

"I knew I was in trouble when the Coco-Loco tasted like water!" -- morphball

MURPH i tried to listen to the three songs but
the player wouldn't initialize correct,it might be my computer.

steve what i am imagining would be nothing like that classical piece
but the structure of the melody would be their
and very much in the surf rock style though
and much faster tempo and changed up a bit.
it wouldn't be over the surf listeners head
but simplified so they can identify with it.
anyway just a wild thought.
hey MURPH CAN YOU MAKE IT WERE A WINDOWS TEN COULD PLAY THOSE SONGS
PLEASE.

So let's get back to the original post as we know SG101ers tend to get onto new topics within a topic. I think we call it "evolving a topic..."
stevel wrote:

To me, this is, essentially, a bunch of clichés strung together. Don't get me wrong - it's extremely well done. I liken it to someone who writes "Classical Style" pieces that actually sound like Mozart ... "expected elements".

A large majority of surf music released in the last 10 years and submitted lately by songwriters on SG101 is weighed against the standards set by the 60's and late 80/90's sounds that were/are immensely popular with our crowd and the general public. Unfortunately this leads to keeping more creative writers and musicians out of the genre, and a large majority of the songs released today are just a rehashing of the same structure, beat, tone and studio mixing of their predecessors.

Now, I've tried my hand at writing various pre-existing styles in which I'm interested, including SW and Surf tunes. But as soon as I start using these "expected elements" I start feeling like I'm just throwing a bunch of cliches together.

You may be, but most music is a mixture of the expected and unexpected. To truly create something unique is probably impossible.

From a totally different perspective, I suppose if someone told me this was another Morricone composition, I might just listen to it "unprejudiced" (though honestly, I feel like he definitely had some "stock" elements he was using himself).

Over my head, sorry can't comment here.

So I wonder how people who listen to this listen to it - do they just like the genre that they pretty much just accept that it's going to have these "stock elements" in it and like suspension of disbelief, just enjoy it for what it is?

I like surf for a lot of different reasons, and yes predictability may be one. Personally I love the tone of the surf guitar with its thick, encompassing reverb, and often simple, but beautifully melodic guitar lines. I also love that basic, primal beat that makes me feel 20 years old again. But I believe there is plenty of room to get rid of the "stock elements (pretty much)" and create your own sound.

Maybe I'm being too analytical. I'm sure also there's plenty of music out there that uses elements but is not so direct of a - I don't want to say "copy" - but let's say "homage". And that's of course another way to see it - an homage to the era.

All music genres use stock elements. If you can't hear it in hip-hop, Frank Sinatra standards, Nirvana and the Beatles, then you need to study music deeper.

But if I start writing a surf song, it's probably gonna have that standard snare pattern, and Am - G - F - E chord progression, and so on...

So change the guitar pattern, or drum pattern. The most important thing is when you are done does it feel like you are at the ocean, in the surf? If not, then you would probably be happier writing something else.

Admittedly, I could do a lot more listening and that would probably broaden out my interpretation and appreciation of what Surf, or Spy, or SW is, but this particular cut really does fall squarely in the "expected" category.

I think you need to listen to more surf, and if you love the genre, follow your heart. Otherwise find another type of music to write.
Best of luck!!!

I suppose what I'm getting at is, if you write using the "expected elements" or "stock elements" or "clichés" of a genre, it runs a very high risk of "all sounding alike". And with genres that are somewhat narrow and specific to begin with (comparatively speaking), you can't do but so much before you're not writing in that genre anymore....
Again, I think you need to listen more critically to other genres. This is pretty much commonplace in music.

https://youtu.be/mJC348Vm7k4

Musings?

Surf.The most dangerous of genres...

Surfcat

MARCH OF THE DEAD SURFERS! (2024) - Agent Octopus
THE JOURNEY HOME - Free download (2025) - Agent Octopus (Single)

BANDCAMP - Agent Octopus
YOUTUBE - Agent Octopus Surf
BANDCAMP - Reverb Galaxy

ARTS good honest answers and organized well.

sorry murph something about my computer won't let me hear it.
i'll try google.