psychonaut wrote:

It all comes down to what you get exposed to.

True that! Your Dr. Guillotine live sounds pretty nuts. I can't imagine them not responding.

Da Vinci Flinglestein,
The quest for the Tone, the tone of the Quest

The Syndicate of Surf on YouTube

http://www.syndicateofsurf.com/

http://sharawaji.com/

http://surfrockradio.com/

There once was a band from Nantucket
Who played all their songs in a bucket
The sound was so bad
The fans they got mad
So they packed up their gear and said...

Da Vinci Flinglestein,
The quest for the Tone, the tone of the Quest

The Syndicate of Surf on YouTube

http://www.syndicateofsurf.com/

http://sharawaji.com/

http://surfrockradio.com/

You know you're both pretty...

Da Vinci Flinglestein,
The quest for the Tone, the tone of the Quest

The Syndicate of Surf on YouTube

http://www.syndicateofsurf.com/

http://sharawaji.com/

http://surfrockradio.com/

Psych,
It perplexes because it makes no sense, that's why. I'm investigating how the term 'surf music' which we understand as denoting primarily instrumental music came to be applied to the blooz-rock maunderings of the likes of Crushed Out.

I notice about US urban hipster 'culture' that there is a pointed lack of interest in history or roots, in short on (hence my question regarding Crushed Out: do they signify?). Adherents to hipsterism are motivated to social conformism and not the least bit obsessed with purist notions. Politically and socially they are called 'progressive' or 'liberal' but really they lack investment ideas and are 'go-along, get-along'; hard edges are out of fashion; being affable and flexible are in.

Many 'freak folk' balked at Joanna Newsome's prodigious musicianship: it's anomalous, showing up the crowd of players to be mere pikers. Shoddy musicianship is rewarded because it gives the hip audience the feeling that anyone who wants to can do it just as well. Music is a fashion to put on and be seen in. It's always been like this.

Real instro-surf like that shown in your video requires aggressive chops, which are simply out of fashion because they only come with commitment and hard work. I think contemporary hipster music reflects a leisure-class dilletante attitude that flatters the egos of hip audiences.

BTW, I know how big Brooklyn is; I lived for 3 years in Yonkers and visited often. Greenpoint is home to a big Polish community and Wmsburgh has the Hasids.

I'd like to hear from Mexican SG101'istas – I think Mexico has a much more guitar-oriented, and generally more musically engaged culture than the US' these days; Surf Rock seems to just come naturally to more Mexican than US bands. Cultural memes come into play here: US hipsters shy away from machismo. Soft irony is the rule, and that applies to gender roles. Then look at the hard edges of a band like Russia's Messer Chups. Ironic in extremis but you can' find a more sinister chiaroscuro sound and stage presence than with those two. American hipsters would find it all disturbingly brutal, and also miss all their historical and cultural references.
All-in-all, what lacks in American culture expresses itself in the young adults that buy all the recorded music and drink all the PBR.

psychonaut wrote:

Again, what does it matter what they choose to call their music? How does it really affect you that you're so fixated on it? They get the apellation because that's what they call it period. There is no great conspiracy or copyright infringement going here.
What is this "surf subculture" which you keep refering to? I'm in Brooklyn often and play gigs in Williamsburgh and so forth, and I've never heard of a "surf subculture" or Crushed Out for that matter -- and I assure you I have my ear open to the local music scene and I'm pretty aware of what's going on around here.
Also, Brooklyn is a very big city, bigger than a lot of cities. Williamsburgh is just a small part of it and hipsters are not representative of Brooklyn at all, as a matter of fact most of them aren't even from there in the first place. There are hundreds of thousands of Hispanics, Jews, Italians, Russians, Blacks, Irish, etc... that were born and raised in Brkln that would take issue with Hipsters being used as emblematic of their hometown.

Don't worry too much about it though We're on the scene to school the Hipsters on real music. Here's a clip from a gig we played in Brooklyn back in May with one of the type of bands that you're on about. Notice how the young crowd genuinely appreciates it? It all comes down to what you get exposed to. (feel free to critique JM!)

Squink Out!

JObeast wrote:

Psych,
It perplexes because it makes no sense, that's why. I'm investigating how the term 'surf music' which we understand as denoting primarily instrumental music came to be applied to the blooz-rock maunderings of the likes of Crushed Out.

I notice about US urban hipster 'culture' that there is a pointed lack of interest in history or roots, in short on (hence my question regarding Crushed Out: do they signify?). Adherents to hipsterism are motivated to social conformism and not the least bit obsessed with purist notions. Politically and socially they are called 'progressive' or 'liberal' but really they lack investment ideas and are 'go-along, get-along'; hard edges are out of fashion; being affable and flexible are in.

Many 'freak folk' balked at Joanna Newsome's prodigious musicianship: it's anomalous, showing up the crowd of players to be mere pikers. Shoddy musicianship is rewarded because it gives the hip audience the feeling that anyone who wants to can do it just as well. Music is a fashion to put on and be seen in. It's always been like this.

Real instro-surf like that shown in your video requires aggressive chops, which are simply out of fashion because they only come with commitment and hard work. I think contemporary hipster music reflects a leisure-class dilletante attitude that flatters the egos of hip audiences.

BTW, I know how big Brooklyn is; I lived for 3 years in Yonkers and visited often. Greenpoint is home to a big Polish community and Wmsburgh has the Hasids.

I'd like to hear from Mexican SG101'istas – I think Mexico has a much more guitar-oriented, and generally more musically engaged culture than the US' these days; Surf Rock seems to just come naturally to more Mexican than US bands. Cultural memes come into play here: US hipsters shy away from machismo. Soft irony is the rule, and that applies to gender roles. Then look at the hard edges of a band like Russia's Messer Chups. Ironic in extremis but you can' find a more sinister chiaroscuro sound and stage presence than with those two. American hipsters would find it all disturbingly brutal, and also miss all their historical and cultural references.
All-in-all, what lacks in American culture expresses itself in the young adults that buy all the recorded music and drink all the PBR.

Look, I hate hipsters as much as you do if not more but so what. Big deal, so they're misapplying a genre name. What do you want to do? Gather the pitchforks and torches and run 'em out of the village? They like what they like and who are we to make value judgements?

Shoddy musicianship is rewarded because it gives the hip audience the feeling that anyone who wants to can do it just as well.

Wasn't that the whole aesthetic of Punk rock? A reaction to the inaccessability of bands like YES, who flaunted their virtuosity? It's deeper than that though, it's an instinctual gutteral reaction to a simple, accessible, primal musical structure. The essence of Rock 'n' Roll if you will. Link Wray knew it well. So did Beethoven

You have a few generations of kids that grew up in the 80's and 90's, and look at the cultural puke they had to absorb as they were growing up. So it's really no surprise that their tastes are the way they are. Garbage in, garbage out. So you can't really fault them for that, can you?

Labels mean nothing really. All throughout the 80's the term punk was misapplied to all those 60's garage bands. And the term Garage in the UK has a totally different musical conotation than it does in the US.
I wouldn't even know how to classify my own band! I mean we have surf music as a foundation, but we throw a lot of other stuff into the mix too, so I'm always at a loss to classify it. But really, there's only 12 notes, which ones are the surf one's again? I can change my name to Montague, but I'd still be the same jerk I was before I changed it.

I find that what we do musically as a band, although it throws them for a loop, they always respond positively to it. Build it and they will come. I really think that if you don't like the way the musical culture is, your time is best spent contributing to the musical landscape in the way you feel it should be done. Form a band, write new music, play gigs, record albums. Complaining about it and sniping from the sidelines changes nothing.

https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

Last edited: Oct 26, 2015 16:39:25

'Naut,
If the moderator wants to shut down the thread because it's unedifying, then he will. Until then, I still disagree with your epistemology, which is essentially nihilist: nothing means anything and it doesn't matter what people call a thing. If that's the case, then we don't have a common language anymore. That proves to be pretty problematic when on cl, in bars, on the street, in churches. Lewis Carroll was lampooning this solipsism with his Queen of Hearts character, who said, "a word means precisely what I want it to mean." In such a world, nothing signifies anything, or rather everything means something to each person regardless of meaning something entirely different to everyone else, and people are essentially strangers just sharing the same space, but not connecting intellectually. No society can function in such a vacuum of meaning for very long.

Words mean different things in different times and places. Paul Weller said ca. 1979 that what they called Punk Rock in UK was commercial pap; New Wave was the term for sincere new pop music, whilst (sic) in the US, it was the inverse. Weller did not say that the terms were irrelevant, because he had discipline and meaning mattered to him.
I fear that in many circles, no one bothers to try to communicate meanings and concepts; subtleties and nuance are tossed aside and people just go around saying, "ya know wut I mean" a lot because they've given up on significance. This is also typified by the formerly young female, but now also young male speech intonational habit of raising pitch as in a question at the end of a statement. This implies that the speaker is simply throwing around a notion, and does not truly believe in what he is saying.

This is the crux of my argument. What you say doesn't matter because you don't believe it does. I say it does matter. Words signify. Words are things, entities of sound patterned to convey meaning and not just carrier waves for whatever is floating in the window.
psychonaut wrote:

Labels mean nothing really. All throughout the 80's the term punk was misapplied to all those 60's garage bands. And the term Garage in the UK has a totally different musical conotation than it does in the US.
I wouldn't even know how to classify my own band! I mean we have surf music as a foundation, but we throw a lot of other stuff into the mix too, so I'm always at a loss to classify it. But really, there's only 12 notes, which ones are the surf one's again? I can change my name to Montague, but I'd still be the same jerk I was before I changed it.

I find that what we do musically as a band, although it throws them for a loop, they always respond positively to it. Build it and they will come. I really think that if you don't like the way the musical culture is, your time is best spent contributing to the musical landscape in the way you feel it should be done. Form a band, write new music, play gigs, record albums. Complaining about it and sniping from the sidelines changes nothing.

Squink Out!

So, the term 'surf' has become popular while the music hasn't. That's funny. I noticed that the term "instro-surf" garners many relevant selections of surf music on Soundcloud, the topmost being a band with a Spanish name that I assume is Mexican. I think it would be likely that 'surf' actually means guitar music in Mexico, whereas in the US guitar is just a prop for a singer and a generic noisemaking device but no one popular really plays them like they mean it.
I think both Coffin Daggers and KBK are VERY surf, so quit acting sensitive. There is no term which would better describe both guitar-heavy, aggressive instro bands.

Squink Out!

Last edited: Oct 26, 2015 21:10:45

killbabykill34 wrote:

I can't help but recall the past 25 years in Punk Rock where every time there is a generational changeover the previous generation spends the next 5 years complaining about how the music they are making isn't "real punk rock". It is not only a broken record, but it has also grown from tiresome to amusing.

I imagine that the 70's Metal musicians spent much time giving the same critique to the thrash and crossover bands that came in the 80's.

I am pretty sure that country artists have been very vocal about every 15 years as to how whatever is currently happening there isn't "real country", despite being the subject of the same argument just a handful of years earlier.

Guys, I get it. What this band, and many like them, are playing is not your idea of "surf". I have been on both sides of this argument. In fact, much like Victor and Coffin Daggers, I have a band that isn't so easily classified, despite largely working under the "surf" moniker.

Times change though. And whether you like it or not, this is largely what the youth movement considers surf these days. It is also a fad, just like everything else embraced by youth movements, and will pass.

Even more than all of that, no kid/20 something gives a damn what the opinion of some aged out musician is. Sorry. It is a harsh truth. There is a target demographic and most of us aren't it. Sure, we buy albums and occasionally see a show. But we are largely irrelevant. And these kids will be in the same position before they know it when another generation comes along.

In regard to being in a touring band, I have realized that there are advantages to the misappropriation of the "surf" moniker. It has made it MUCH easier for us to book in many towns that otherwise would have been apprehensive towards booking an all instrumental band.

Very well put Noah

https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

JObeast wrote:

I fear that in many circles, no one bothers to try to communicate meanings and concepts; subtleties and nuance are tossed aside and people just go around saying, "ya know wut I mean" a lot because they've given up on significance. This is also typified by the formerly young female, but now also young male speech intonational habit of raising pitch as in a question at the end of a statement.

Very popular in Scotland/Northern England as well, gender regardless.

Yep, pretty damn surfy. That song is really hard to listen to(the lyrics are fucking inane). But... it is surf to these ears. It has vocals, yes. But it is more surf than Ventures stuff to me.

It's funny, the Raveonettes had a pretty strong 'surf' lead guitar sound. It wasn't surfy from a songwriting standpoint, and they never referred to themselves as surf. I'm surprised I don't see more bands in this movement citing them as an influence.

And actually, reviewers of the last Raveonettes album Pe'Ahi referred to the album as 'surfy' despite it being hands down the furthest thing from surf music they have done. The album, has surf symbology and is about being at the beach. Sune, lead guitar, having being in a instrumental surf band sure knows what surf music is but chose to write about the beach in a different way due to his experience. His experience being a near drowning.