JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 11:02 AM
Hello Everyone,
This site has gone reverb crazy in the past month, and not in a healthy way. Instead of obsessing over the minutiae of the Astronauts reverb versus that of Dick Dale's, we are developing a case of OCD around not only different devices to get us drip, but discussing every possible mod to every device, in the quest for the holy reverb.
First and foremost, people failed miserably at the blind test. You all guessed anyways despite probably not having played the majority of those devices. How many of you used laptop speakers to do the test?(I did). But worst of all, people are actually using that test to justify how different the devices or how much better certain devices sound. To me, the only device that isn't up to snuff is the Strymon, it sounded like onboard reverb. The rest of the devices... sound good. I guessed correct that E was the FRV-1, but I thought it sounded really good. And I sure as hell wasn't going to guess which was which of the FET, FI, or Gomez.
This thread has reignited mod-mania to tanks, has people obsessing over different pans, and discussing different tubes. Do these things make differences? Yes. But I encourage all of you to stop throwing money at different devices and start playing. If you have one device that gives you drip then stop thinking about how to make it better as all of you have shown that it doesn't matter in a blind test.
Also, each and every tank I've ever used varies greatly. There are no two identical sounding Fender tanks. This goes for vintage, this goes for RI. RI tanks can sound great, vintage tanks can sound dreadful. Accutronics pans can sound good, Gibbs pans can sound bad.
Also, THERE ARE KNOBS ON THE DEVICE!!! "I need less tail" "I need more drip" "It is too bright" People don't seem to realize this, and it drives me crazy, the knobs on the reverb unit can get you an incredibly wide array of sounds. And they are all relevant to surf music.
Dwell - Affects how long the tail/sustain of the reverb lasts. This knob is useful to me as turning it down causes my guitar to sit much better in a live setting. On a record, you might want to have it higher than you would live with harmonic frequencies interfering with each other.
Mix - The most misunderstood knob. Affects how much of your clean signal goes to the amp versus how much of the reverb signal goes to the amp. Essentially, a volume knob for reverb. This knob is highly dependent on where your other settings are.
Tone - Drip city, lots of people rely on the dwell knob thinking that gets them the drip but it comes from this guy. Beware, having it turned up too high saturates your signal and causes it to become ice picky(I apologize to Seattle, circa 2005-2007).
Don't obsess over getting the perfect reverb, as that doesn't make the music good. If you are a great player and great songwriter you are going to sound amazing with a bad guitar, bad reverb, and bad amp. If you have no vision/talent you are going to sound horrible with the perfect guitar, the holy reverb, and even with a brownface Showman.
Get out there and play! Hit record on the DAW, the cassette deck, tablet. Form a band, write a song, play original music! Learn about reverb from doing, not from studying and picking it apart. What works best for you is up to you to decide.
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HallmarkSweptWinger
Joined: Jul 27, 2006
Posts: 1284
Berlinesia, Germanifornia
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 11:14 AM
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zzero
Joined: Jul 09, 2010
Posts: 1153
Lillian Alabama
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 12:32 PM
Zappa said "shut up and play your guitar". Get the hint? Good post Jake! 
— Enjoying the surf,sun and sand!!
Last edited: Jan 25, 2015 12:35:58
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IvanP
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10331
southern Michigan
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 12:40 PM
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CrazyAces
Joined: Jul 31, 2012
Posts: 4052
Nashville, TN.
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 12:42 PM
Jake - really well said.
I let out a sigh of relief when I finished reading your comment and commented "amen to that" out loud.
I understand that for many the gear is as much a part of the "hobby" as the playing but this thought process does nothing for me personally.
I never commented on the blind reverb shootout because frankly - I could care less. I very much appreciate the work that went into producing and presenting it but in the end I use what I use and don't care much at all what else is out there. I've been told many times that the fuzz pedal or amp that I use "won't or doesn't work" for this music which I find humor in. How would that person know? They're not me. They don't play like me, write music like me and likewise I don't play like them.
When I heard that there might be a reverb shootout at one of the festivals my first thought was "why not just have another band play?"
I guess in the end, without sounding overly critical of anyone's gear hobbies or quests I'd really like to see as much response here on SG101 to some of the new music being made, band's performances etc.
Cheers,
Jeff
— http://www.facebook.com/CrazyAcesMusic
http://www.youtube.com/user/crazyacesrock
http://www.reverbnation.com/crazyacesmusic
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 12:43 PM
IvanP wrote:
 A bit too much navel-gazing lately, as fun as that can be! 
And I know that I'm historically guilty of this across all platforms(guitar, amp, reverb).
So, Reverb Allies, take it from me that it is a whole lot more fun to write music and play in bands than it is worrying about getting the perfect reverb to start with!
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Fady
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 2253
North Carolina
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 12:44 PM
Bummed. Knowing your Jag kick and appreciation for what Dave does, I thought this was going to be your review of this (granted I seem to recall he plays many different guitars through this album):
Then I got to the bottom of your post I re-read the thread title. Oh, you weren't intending to talk about that one here. Maybe your next thread 
— Fady
El Mirage @ ReverbNation
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 12:48 PM
CrazyAces wrote:
When I heard that there might be a reverb shootout at one of the festivals my first thought was "why not just have another band play?"
Why not, instead of buying all of those pedals and units, fly Jeff Senn out to bang on his Teiscos.
Jeff Senn and his Thrilling Teisco Troop.
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 12:49 PM
Onslow_Beach wrote:
Bummed. Knowing your Jag kick and appreciation for what Dave does, I thought this was going to be your review of this
The title of this thread was definitely influenced by said album!
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CrazyAces
Joined: Jul 31, 2012
Posts: 4052
Nashville, TN.
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 01:00 PM
JakeDobner wrote:
CrazyAces wrote:
When I heard that there might be a reverb shootout at one of the festivals my first thought was "why not just have another band play?"
Why not, instead of buying all of those pedals and units, fly Jeff Senn out to bang on his Teiscos.
Jeff Senn and his Thrilling Teisco Troop.
"Who let the junk man in with those junky guitars?" LOL
— http://www.facebook.com/CrazyAcesMusic
http://www.youtube.com/user/crazyacesrock
http://www.reverbnation.com/crazyacesmusic
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Fady
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 2253
North Carolina
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 01:20 PM
As much as I try to refrain from adding to "Gear" posts, I'm not perfect, but on the whole I think I do pretty well in that department even if it means not being supper active at times... I think the answer to the root question has been covered at least a few times. The most memorable thread for me being this one. Music, songs, bands... that's all deeply personal stuff. Never mind there is a rare skill to writing quality reviews of music with substance. Besides, if a lot of this crowd were great with words, there'd probably be a lot less folks focused on the Instrumental scene. LOL! Gear, whateve's - say anything you want and no one gets hurt.
— Fady
El Mirage @ ReverbNation
Last edited: Jan 25, 2015 13:20:49
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Matt22
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2826
Fredericksburg, Virginia
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 01:43 PM
Rock on. I really don't care what people use. If it sounds great and you (and others) like it, then use it!
When I didn't tour with my reverb tank, people had a fit. However, after seeing me play live, people made some pretty excellent comments about my tone/sound/reverb...and all of that sans tank.
Good post, Jake!
— Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-2020
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html
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ludobag
Joined: Jun 05, 2010
Posts: 620
at south of
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 02:07 PM
yes then all thread like ,(guitar ,amp ,strings ect...)
must be banned on the forum 
i don't know what you have against reverb but lot of thread are like that
but one thing i am agry is
with the best guitar ,verb and amp i will not play better but i will play maybe with much pleasure
Last edited: Jan 25, 2015 14:15:17
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Ariel
Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1556
Israel
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 02:45 PM
You preach subjectivity. Learning to maximize and appreciate what you already got is important.
My attitude is that while a poor man may potentially make use of goods better than a rich man, it's still better to be rich, and then make the most of it!
I do agree with the general gist of what you're conveying - don't fuss too much that it hinders your music making... if your reverb works, than it's time to concentrate on your abilities... The details are individual and fluid anyway... what you do with it is what's important... Zappa cliché and all that.
But there's another side to this - to get to that point, when you're free and confident with your playing, one must be internally satisfied with the sound and trust his gear.
Getting there, with all the intricates, is IMHO what the gear forum is for.
If you have one device that gives you drip then stop thinking about how to make it better as all of you have shown that it doesn't matter in a blind test.
I can't even... where to start... so not true!
Even legitimate gear comparisons can't give an accurate assesment of the piece in actual use, just a general impression. What sounds good on Youtube doesn't mean it feels good, or retain dynamics, or has headroom, or has usable EQ in a live setting, or...
The reaction that real springs give you vs. digital is like the difference between diving and snorkling, and hearing a recording of those is like watching both on TV - so far removed from the experience that it really doesn't matter.
That blind "test" was even less controlled, all it meant to be was fun and a reverb celebration. I took from it what I already know - the FRV's shit, and the Gomez is awesome. Between those 2 extremes, digital sucks and analog rules. Why should anyone excpect it to be the be-all definite "what's better" is beyond me, and it wasn't presented as such.
I had an FRV-1, it did give me drip and it did suck. Souded bad, feld bad. So are you saying I should have stayed with it because some people could not pin-pick it in a blind PC speakers test? I hated it, played less and enjoyed my playing less. Then I had the Topanga, that gave me drip and sounded great and felt great. I played more. Now I have the Surfy Bear, I play more than ever, it's just so compelling. I also got so much better with experssion, dynamics, INTENT. Now I'm ordering a couple of different pans to try, it's a jourey that gives me happiness. Bottom line - this "tone chasing" actually made me play more and enjoy it more when I do, I'm sinking deeper into surf addiction and it's wonderful.
Also, each and every tank I've ever used varies greatly. There are no two identical sounding Fender tanks. This goes for vintage, this goes for RI. RI tanks can sound great, vintage tanks can sound dreadful. Accutronics pans can sound good, Gibbs pans can sound bad.
All the more reason to experiment and find the best pan (for you), no? You already did your journey Jakob, we're just beginning, and it takes money and experimentation and many threads for each individual to get a realistic understanding of what's what in the surf reverb world, and choose. It is the main contributor to the sound after all.
I personally learned and gained much from your various gear posts, and appreciate your sharing of knowledge and experience.
Also, THERE ARE KNOBS ON THE DEVICE!!!
You really think that someone who's not happy with his sound won't go ahead and try different settings? How stupid people are? Anyway you know that if your base tone sucks, or the pan isn't real drippy, there's a limit to what the pots can do. The Strymon won't give you that exhilirating Dick Dale glissando in a thousand years. The FRV-1's tone below 5 is useless. The MOD is hard to fine-tune. We learn that.
Someone said (Robert Johnson, associated with David Byrne): "To be free, is to be mechanical". Bruce Lee and Jimi Hendrix taught to first learn the rules and then forget them.
All players participating here could use some of that education, from either the MICRO or MACRO perspective, but don't you worry about it, it's all healthy.
I do hope to present to more musical content to this site. In time!
Last edited: Jan 25, 2015 15:32:35
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crumble
Joined: Sep 09, 2008
Posts: 3158
Guildford England
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 03:31 PM
DreadInBabylon wrote:
You already did your journey Jakob, we're just beginning
Slartibartfast Jake 
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IvanP
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10331
southern Michigan
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 04:45 PM
DreadInBabylon wrote:
You already did your journey Jakob, we're just beginning
It's a journey without an end. At some point you just decide to not walk quite as much - or quite as fast. But we all still keep walking - though there are really nice benches along the way with beautiful vistas, and too many times we just pass them by.... 
— Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube
Last edited: Jan 25, 2015 16:45:55
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Ariel
Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1556
Israel
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 05:35 PM
IvanP wrote:
DreadInBabylon wrote:
You already did your journey Jakob, we're just beginning
It's a journey without an end. At some point you just decide to not walk quite as much - or quite as fast. But we all still keep walking - though there are really nice benches along the way with beautiful vistas, and too many times we just pass them by....
I knew someone would catch that, I didn't phrase out my thoughts exactly, out of laziness. Of course it is! A never ending vista of exploring and learning.
Opening and creating your own path is what ultimately leads to confidence, which lends itself to playing ability and original expression. It begins though with listening to the elders, easier that way.
This forum is so much more than internet babble for me, it nourishes.
Would have been a fool not to listen to advice of the gentlemen and rock-stars dwelling here, even though some can be half my actual age...
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zzero
Joined: Jul 09, 2010
Posts: 1153
Lillian Alabama
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 07:44 PM
The destination is not important. The journey is important! I have not read the reverb test business or any of the reverb posts. I never had an out board reverb unit until a few years ago and it was just a Digitech Digital Reverb for a Roland BC 30 210 amp. No 'verb on that amp. Have always used the amps reverb. The last 2 times I saw DD, he didn't have a Fender reverb. Always used my ear. I have no interest in laboring over tech books. Great for folks that enjoy it. Hell for me. I can read and understand 'em but it always seems to be someone else's ideals.
My whole point is make the journey and don't worry about the destination. Use your creativity and don't depend on someone else to show you the way. Ride the damn wave!!!!!
— Enjoying the surf,sun and sand!!
Last edited: Jan 26, 2015 01:22:15
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IvanP
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10331
southern Michigan
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 08:54 PM
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jan 25 2015 08:57 PM
DreadInBabylon wrote:
You already did your journey Jakob,
It's just changed! And I'm still buying lots of guitars and tweaking with tone and such(mostly in Logic Pro/Direct In recording). I'm just not waiting for the perfect gear to dictate how I play or what I write.
I'm just tweaking on the fly these days.
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