surf scales?

horax

Joined: Mar 23, 2011
Posts: 518
colorado springs
United States

Posted on Jul 10 2013 10:23 PM

are there any specific scales to use when writing surf music?

If I have a backing track in A, what's the best, surfy scale to coose?
A pentatonic, etc???

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DannySnyder

Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11054
Berkeley, CA
United States

Posted on Jul 10 2013 10:40 PM

Plenty of info in our archives Horax.

—

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

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stevel

Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
United States

Posted on Jul 26 2013 02:00 AM

horax wrote:

are there any specific scales to use when writing surf music?

If I have a backing track in A, what's the best, surfy scale to coose?
A pentatonic, etc???

"In A"??

Is it in A Major, or A minor?

There's no such thing IMHO as a "surfy scale" - people ask that same question on Rap forums, EDM forums, Classic Rock forums, and so on and so forth.

Far and away, except for intentionally exotic sounds, most forms of modern popular music use NOTES from Major and Minor scales for their MELODIES.

The one super commonplace exception is Blues and anything "bluesy" uses "Blue notes" which are, in general, outside of the key (or scale).

Pentatonic scales are also super common, but if you understand them as sub-sets of a Major or Minor scale (Major pentatonic and Minor Pentatonic) they're really not "new" or "different" scales, just familiar scales missing some notes!

However, you shouldn't "use scales". You should WRITE MELODIES!!! Surf music is way more melodic than a lot of music - in instrumentals without vocals the lead line has to be a melody to hold listeners' attention, without it getting "too riffy" like much of the classic rock stuff.

Walk Don't Run is mainly A minor and C Major with just a few chromatic notes (and a nod to Harmonic minor).

Pipeline is interesting in that it uses a part of a pentatonic scale, but the "wrong" one - it's in Em and should be E G A B D but instead it uses B D E F# - what seems like a Bm pentatonic! However, again, if you see this simply as four notes out of the key (Em), they all fit. When it moves up to the Am chord, it's E-G-A-B - but again, still just notes from Em.

Wipeout is more bluesy - it's essentially in C Major but the riff uses the blue note Bb with a passing tone B. One could say this is a Mixolydian element - so using a "mode", but it's more like the familiar bluesy idea of using a minor pentatonic over an otherwise major chord progression (minor pentatonic over major gives you two blue notes).

Speaking of Modes (Mixolydian), sometimes modes are used. Apache is in Dorian. It begins in A Dorian which is like A minor with a raised 6th step (making that note F#, and the D chord D Major rather than D minor as it would normally be in Am). It's also a 4 note riff like Pipeline and almost "Upside down" - A-F#-E-D - so again it sort of looks like part of something else - a D Major pentatonic for example, but given the key center is A minor, we can assume it's a "Minor scale" but the F# makes it Dorian. Like Pipeline, it "transposes" up to the chord of the IV and uses 4 notes - and also like Pipeline, the notes it ends up using are all still part of the "main" scale - in this case A Dorian (but the chords are a literal Dorian transposition).

WHen it goes to the F chord, it's now in pure A minor (or A Aeolian if you like). It kind of also leans towards C Major briefly, but there's a nod to a C7 chord which we'd have to explain as C Mixolydian, but really it's just the note that's a chord tone that's not in the key.

There's also a really nice thing the second time this happens which is called "Mode mixture" or "borrowing" where a note from C MINOR is used (the G to Ab move).

So in other words, Apache is a little more complex in it's use of modes and scales.

But again, you really need to concentrate on MELODY and not "what scale to play". If you listen to something like Man of Mystery, the melody really doesn't come from scales, it comes from the chords.

Best,
Steve

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Zonker

Joined: Feb 19, 2010
Posts: 43

Posted on Jul 26 2013 09:15 AM

There are scales in Rap?

—

I am but one dude~ Zonker Harris

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HockeyPuck

Joined: Sep 11, 2012
Posts: 114
Sorry Gulch
United States

Posted on Jul 27 2013 11:57 AM

I wish I said what Steve said!

—

All I wish I knew what they were talking about

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el_camello

Joined: Jul 04, 2010
Posts: 369
Ottawa
Canada

Posted on Aug 07 2013 09:15 PM

To add to stevel's very useful post, especially his comment about "If you listen to something like Man of Mystery, the melody really doesn't come from scales, it comes from the chords."

You could say the melody of Apache is in A dorian. But the maj6th of Amin (F#) only really comes into play when the chord changes to Dmaj. F# is the 3rd of Dmaj. So, instead of thinking "I'm playing A dorian scale over these chords" you could think "I'm playing notes from Amin (mostly chordtones, some scale tones) over the Amin chord, followed by notes from Dmaj (again mostly chordtones, some Dmaj scale tones) over the Dmaj chord.

There isn't really a surfy scale... but there are surfy chord progressions that point toward surfy melodies. One definitely being the "Minor chord up to the Maj4th chord". This is my way to, as stevel says "you shouldn't "use scales". You should WRITE MELODIES!".

—

-Pierre
The Obsidians! (Ottawa surf)
The Obsidians debut EP

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DannySnyder

Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11054
Berkeley, CA
United States

Posted on Aug 07 2013 09:18 PM

Great post El Camello. To add to his advice - you should learn your triads. So when you have a cool chord progression but are unsure what note you want to go to, you'll instantly have 3 to choose from. Just one tool in the songwriter's toolbox

—

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

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DannySnyder

Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11054
Berkeley, CA
United States

Posted on Aug 07 2013 09:19 PM

Plus, nobody could accuse me of writing simple melodies, but I've yet to learn my modes. I think they're more useful for improvising.

—

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

Top

stevel

Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
United States

Posted on Aug 10 2013 11:28 PM

Danny, you say you don't know you modes, but I hope you know your major and minor scales. If you do, you do know your modes, you just don't realize it! Actually, it's pretty easy - just like C Major and A minor are related, each mode is related to some Major key too. Many people learn that "A Minor is a C Major scale starting on the 6th note". If you learned this too, then modes are no different: "D Dorian is a C Major scale starting on the 2nd note". Same principle, so really kind of easy. There's just 5 more to memorize!

Steve

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stevel

Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
United States

Posted on Aug 10 2013 11:31 PM

DannySnyder wrote:

Great post El Camello. To add to his advice - you should learn your triads. So when you have a cool chord progression but are unsure what note you want to go to, you'll instantly have 3 to choose from. Just one tool in the songwriter's toolbox

Yes, one should definitely learn their triads! A great example is the middle of Penetration, where the melody simply outlines the chord tones - and what's sneaky is while the chords go down, they pick the next higher set of chord tones for the next chord so while the notes they're playing are from each chord, they go higher and the chords in the rhythm part go lower - crafty!

But don't forget your scales - you need them to play the rest of Penetration

Steve

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horax Joined: Mar 23, 2011 Posts: 518 colorado springs	Posted on Jul 10 2013 10:23 PM are there any specific scales to use when writing surf music? If I have a backing track in A, what's the best, surfy scale to coose? A pentatonic, etc??? Top
DannySnyder Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 11054 Berkeley, CA	Posted on Jul 10 2013 10:40 PM Plenty of info in our archives Horax. — Danny Snyder "With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF Top
stevel Joined: Oct 12, 2012 Posts: 219 Hampton Roads, Virginia	Posted on Jul 26 2013 02:00 AM horax wrote: are there any specific scales to use when writing surf music? If I have a backing track in A, what's the best, surfy scale to coose? A pentatonic, etc??? "In A"?? Is it in A Major, or A minor? There's no such thing IMHO as a "surfy scale" - people ask that same question on Rap forums, EDM forums, Classic Rock forums, and so on and so forth. Far and away, except for intentionally exotic sounds, most forms of modern popular music use NOTES from Major and Minor scales for their MELODIES. The one super commonplace exception is Blues and anything "bluesy" uses "Blue notes" which are, in general, outside of the key (or scale). Pentatonic scales are also super common, but if you understand them as sub-sets of a Major or Minor scale (Major pentatonic and Minor Pentatonic) they're really not "new" or "different" scales, just familiar scales missing some notes! However, you shouldn't "use scales". You should WRITE MELODIES!!! Surf music is way more melodic than a lot of music - in instrumentals without vocals the lead line has to be a melody to hold listeners' attention, without it getting "too riffy" like much of the classic rock stuff. Walk Don't Run is mainly A minor and C Major with just a few chromatic notes (and a nod to Harmonic minor). Pipeline is interesting in that it uses a part of a pentatonic scale, but the "wrong" one - it's in Em and should be E G A B D but instead it uses B D E F# - what seems like a Bm pentatonic! However, again, if you see this simply as four notes out of the key (Em), they all fit. When it moves up to the Am chord, it's E-G-A-B - but again, still just notes from Em. Wipeout is more bluesy - it's essentially in C Major but the riff uses the blue note Bb with a passing tone B. One could say this is a Mixolydian element - so using a "mode", but it's more like the familiar bluesy idea of using a minor pentatonic over an otherwise major chord progression (minor pentatonic over major gives you two blue notes). Speaking of Modes (Mixolydian), sometimes modes are used. Apache is in Dorian. It begins in A Dorian which is like A minor with a raised 6th step (making that note F#, and the D chord D Major rather than D minor as it would normally be in Am). It's also a 4 note riff like Pipeline and almost "Upside down" - A-F#-E-D - so again it sort of looks like part of something else - a D Major pentatonic for example, but given the key center is A minor, we can assume it's a "Minor scale" but the F# makes it Dorian. Like Pipeline, it "transposes" up to the chord of the IV and uses 4 notes - and also like Pipeline, the notes it ends up using are all still part of the "main" scale - in this case A Dorian (but the chords are a literal Dorian transposition). WHen it goes to the F chord, it's now in pure A minor (or A Aeolian if you like). It kind of also leans towards C Major briefly, but there's a nod to a C7 chord which we'd have to explain as C Mixolydian, but really it's just the note that's a chord tone that's not in the key. There's also a really nice thing the second time this happens which is called "Mode mixture" or "borrowing" where a note from C MINOR is used (the G to Ab move). So in other words, Apache is a little more complex in it's use of modes and scales. But again, you really need to concentrate on MELODY and not "what scale to play". If you listen to something like Man of Mystery, the melody really doesn't come from scales, it comes from the chords. Best, Steve Top
Zonker Joined: Feb 19, 2010 Posts: 43	Posted on Jul 26 2013 09:15 AM There are scales in Rap? — I am but one dude~ Zonker Harris Top
HockeyPuck Joined: Sep 11, 2012 Posts: 114 Sorry Gulch	Posted on Jul 27 2013 11:57 AM I wish I said what Steve said! — All I wish I knew what they were talking about Top
el_camello Joined: Jul 04, 2010 Posts: 369 Ottawa	Posted on Aug 07 2013 09:15 PM To add to stevel's very useful post, especially his comment about "If you listen to something like Man of Mystery, the melody really doesn't come from scales, it comes from the chords." You could say the melody of Apache is in A dorian. But the maj6th of Amin (F#) only really comes into play when the chord changes to Dmaj. F# is the 3rd of Dmaj. So, instead of thinking "I'm playing A dorian scale over these chords" you could think "I'm playing notes from Amin (mostly chordtones, some scale tones) over the Amin chord, followed by notes from Dmaj (again mostly chordtones, some Dmaj scale tones) over the Dmaj chord. There isn't really a surfy scale... but there are surfy chord progressions that point toward surfy melodies. One definitely being the "Minor chord up to the Maj4th chord". This is my way to, as stevel says "you shouldn't "use scales". You should WRITE MELODIES!". — -Pierre The Obsidians! (Ottawa surf) The Obsidians debut EP Top
DannySnyder Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 11054 Berkeley, CA	Posted on Aug 07 2013 09:18 PM Great post El Camello. To add to his advice - you should learn your triads. So when you have a cool chord progression but are unsure what note you want to go to, you'll instantly have 3 to choose from. Just one tool in the songwriter's toolbox — Danny Snyder "With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF Top
DannySnyder Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 11054 Berkeley, CA	Posted on Aug 07 2013 09:19 PM Plus, nobody could accuse me of writing simple melodies, but I've yet to learn my modes. I think they're more useful for improvising. — Danny Snyder "With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF Top
stevel Joined: Oct 12, 2012 Posts: 219 Hampton Roads, Virginia	Posted on Aug 10 2013 11:28 PM Danny, you say you don't know you modes, but I hope you know your major and minor scales. If you do, you do know your modes, you just don't realize it! Actually, it's pretty easy - just like C Major and A minor are related, each mode is related to some Major key too. Many people learn that "A Minor is a C Major scale starting on the 6th note". If you learned this too, then modes are no different: "D Dorian is a C Major scale starting on the 2nd note". Same principle, so really kind of easy. There's just 5 more to memorize! Steve Top
stevel Joined: Oct 12, 2012 Posts: 219 Hampton Roads, Virginia	Posted on Aug 10 2013 11:31 PM DannySnyder wrote: Great post El Camello. To add to his advice - you should learn your triads. So when you have a cool chord progression but are unsure what note you want to go to, you'll instantly have 3 to choose from. Just one tool in the songwriter's toolbox Yes, one should definitely learn their triads! A great example is the middle of Penetration, where the melody simply outlines the chord tones - and what's sneaky is while the chords go down, they pick the next higher set of chord tones for the next chord so while the notes they're playing are from each chord, they go higher and the chords in the rhythm part go lower - crafty! But don't forget your scales - you need them to play the rest of Penetration Steve Top

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surf scales?