What if the sax player does not show up ?

caddady

Joined: Feb 14, 2010
Posts: 802
N.E. Ohio
United States

Posted on Jan 18 2013 08:05 AM

There were attemts at making sax free utopian societys, for example Economy Villiage in West PA near Pittsburgh.

http://www.oldeconomyvillage.org/

They were very sucessful in generating income and peaceful living. But each one died out due to lack of SAX.

—

http://www.reverbnation.com/thegreasemonkeyz

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Noel

Joined: Mar 15, 2011
Posts: 8528
Back in Piitsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up.
United States

Posted on Jan 18 2013 08:07 AM

caddady wrote:

There were attemts at making sax free utopian societys, for example Economy Villiage in West PA near Pittsburgh.

http://www.oldeconomyvillage.org/

They were very sucessful in generating income and peaceful living. But each one died out due to lack of SAX.

I grew up near Old Economy. Visited it several times before I moved away. Thanks for the reminder, Greg.

—

This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.

Last edited: Jan 18, 2013 08:09:37

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Tuck

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 3166
Denver, CO
12 Calendar Pins

Posted on Jan 18 2013 05:24 PM

SURFmole wrote:

Well, I'm sorry if I offended anyone (especially sax players) by contributing my 2 cents...FWIW though, it doesn't matter...just a personal opinion. Also, with my post (and I'm guessing Jake's as well) I was being somewhat sarcastic.

A certain amount of sarcastic humor is part and parcel of the debate. Anyone who likes the Cosmonauts can't be all bad. And Portland surf rocks. It took me a while to get used to trumpet in surf. I'm still not always happy with it.

There are different ways to use sax in surf music. There's lead sax and rhythm sax. And there are different styles of the lead approach at least, including at least some sort of genteel subordinate co-leads. I kind of like a wide variety of approaches including some that really annoy people who don't like saxophone much, but I definitely like sax-less surf music too. I don't mind people not liking sax so much as I dislike them suggesting that nobody should. I think anybody who likes surf music is going to eventually realize, maybe with a shock, that part of what they like about some song is the sax part. They may immediately wonder how to replace it with a guitar or keyboard version, either from necessity or from personal taste and inclination, but that's fine.

So, maybe we can return to the actual point of this thread, which is precisely what to do with songs that have prominent sax parts when you actually don't have a sax player. It doesn't really matter if you are replacing the sax part or doing without it out of necessity, or taste, and it doesn't really matter if you like the sax part or not either. The technical problem is what to replace it with. Because a song can be too short, or two repetitive, or to thin, or whatever, when you simply leave a part out or replace it with what a guitar can easily do.

In some cases you can use a keyboard. But I think the question was really the general one of what to do when you have a guitar-bass-drums combo and you have to handle a song that originally had more kinds of voices. If you are leaving out rhythm parts you have the general problem of how to augment a lead, hopefully not a busy one, with additional rhythm bits to fill the places where the rhythm carried things. This happens all the time in three piece approaches to four piece songs, or two guitar approaches to three guitar songs.

I've had the pleasure recently of listening to some Denver musicians trying to uncombine the parts in Astronauts songs as they are played now to play them with larger, more traditional (completely sax-less) ensembles.

If you are replacing a lead part, then you have to come up with something that fills the space without just being repetitive. Sometimes you can adapt the sax part. You may be hetter off trying to come up with something new. I think modern bands tend to be more nervous about that than the original bands were. It feels sacrilegious, perhaps, when you see the original song as a classic or canonical item.

People often suggest substituting a guitar with a different tonality - more distorted usually - but I think this tends not to work. Maybe the problem is that the sax parts are less distinguished by the tonal qualities of the instrument than by the phrasings that are natural and characteristic. For example, I believe you can slur smoothly across a series of notes that would be very awkward for a guitarist, but you can't generate guitar like glissandos easily, and the equivalent of double picking isn't easy either. And, of course, there are no real chords without multiple saxes.

Are there examples of bands using a distorted guitar in lieu of a sax? Could Planet Seven be seen as a case of this?

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WhorehayRFB

Joined: Jun 12, 2008
Posts: 3331
Huntington Beach, CA
United States

Posted on Jan 18 2013 06:57 PM

Number9 wrote:

caddady wrote:

Guitar players have been attempting to emulate sax players for quite some time.
1: Sustain
2: Distortion
3: Bending notes including whammy bar dips.
4: Phrasing (not to be confused with Phase Shifting)
All are things guitarists do to mimic the sax.
A Roland synth gizmo and sax patch will allow you to sound like a horn if you really want to.

That's the kind of answer i was expecting.
Did'nt mean to open a debate about the usefulness of a sax in a surf band, or whether you like the instrument or not.
I think I may have given a wrong title to the topic.
To clarify things up: How do you play this classic tune when you do not have a saxophonist available or do not wish to have one ?

It's been mentioned here, but fuzz.

—

Radio Free Bakersfield--60 Minutes of TWANG, CRUNCH, OOMPH.
http://radiofreebakersfield.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Radio-Free-Bakersfield/172410279636
http://www.sandiegojoe.com/rfb.htm

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Number9

Joined: Jul 18, 2009
Posts: 499
5 Download Pins

Posted on Jan 19 2013 01:02 PM

.

Last edited: Mar 01, 2020 09:27:14

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vintagesurfdude

Joined: Nov 28, 2011
Posts: 795
Prescott Valley, AZ
United States

Posted on Jan 20 2013 02:19 AM

No Sax player? Breath a sigh of relief and recalculate the pay for the band members who showed up.

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shivers13

Joined: Jul 29, 2009
Posts: 2605
Boss Angeles, CA
1 News Pin

Posted on Jan 20 2013 11:24 AM

WhorehayRFB wrote:

It's been mentioned here, but fuzz.

YES!! The Boardwalker's do a real fine job with that in this clip. But of course if you can find a cat that can play sax, get him!

—

BOSS FINK "R.P.M." available now from DOUBLE CROWN RECORDS!
www.facebook.com/BossFink
www.doublecrownrecords.com

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zzero

Joined: Jul 09, 2010
Posts: 1153
Lillian Alabama
United States

Posted on Jan 20 2013 06:20 PM

hi. i really did not think another sax thread would show up here but nevertheless.

i agree with jake. in my mind it would prove the existence of God.

but history shows us that sax was an interal part of surf music, just one of many ifluences that came into surf music. so sax has a place in surf music. that can't be denied. it was there and the proof won't go away.

now the originial question was what to do if the band's sax player doesn't show for the gig. depends on his place in the band's soloist heiarchy. if he's great, the band is screwed. if he's a tooter than forget about it, play the gig with less sax material and split the money among the guy's that show up. that' what we did!!

since we are suppossed to be instrument neutral here, i will no go into my usual tirade about saxophones--in general. OK??

—

Enjoying the surf,sun and sand!!

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Tuck

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 3166
Denver, CO
12 Calendar Pins

Posted on Jan 21 2013 12:09 PM

shivers13 wrote:

YES!! The Boardwalker's do a real fine job with that in this clip. But of course if you can find a cat that can play sax, get him!

Pretty good example of what to do when the rhythm guitarist doesn't show up either.

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Tuck

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 3166
Denver, CO
12 Calendar Pins

Posted on Jan 21 2013 12:13 PM

Number9 wrote:

Tuck: Thank a lot for your help on this topic.

You're welcome, and I liked the ironic title even if not everyone else got it. I think the summary answer is "You're going to need (to be) a more imaginative guitarist."

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Number9

Joined: Jul 18, 2009
Posts: 499
5 Download Pins

Posted on Jan 21 2013 01:01 PM

.

Last edited: Mar 01, 2020 09:26:35

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davis

Joined: Jan 09, 2012
Posts: 84
Kentuckiana
United States

Posted on Feb 26 2013 10:51 AM

You hire me to play the sax parts on harmonica.

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Tuck

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 3166
Denver, CO
12 Calendar Pins

Posted on Feb 28 2013 02:07 PM

The Krektones w/ Apache & Besame Mucho

This answers the question from the other direction. Here a band with a sax/trumpet player tackles two songs which don't have sax/trumpet in the original. So they have to adapt the songs to the instruments they have. I think it works.

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davis

Joined: Jan 09, 2012
Posts: 84
Kentuckiana
United States

Posted on Mar 01 2013 09:18 AM

^ I think it works to a degree, but it would work better if the horns were used more sparingly or in a more supportive role, like to compliment the guitars rather than being out front.

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FlatRacer

Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 182

Posted on Mar 04 2013 11:42 AM

imafunkyman wrote:

Kazoo solo!

That's what immediately came to my mind, too!

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crumble

Joined: Sep 09, 2008
Posts: 3158
Guildford England
United Kingdom

Posted on Mar 04 2013 12:26 PM

I'd download the iKaossilator for iPhone/pad which should cost only a few bucks. Dial in the scale pattern, select sax and wiggle ya finger. Almost impossible to make a bum note.

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caddady Joined: Feb 14, 2010 Posts: 802 N.E. Ohio	Posted on Jan 18 2013 08:05 AM There were attemts at making sax free utopian societys, for example Economy Villiage in West PA near Pittsburgh. http://www.oldeconomyvillage.org/ They were very sucessful in generating income and peaceful living. But each one died out due to lack of SAX. — http://www.reverbnation.com/thegreasemonkeyz Top
Noel Joined: Mar 15, 2011 Posts: 8528 Back in Piitsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up.	Posted on Jan 18 2013 08:07 AM caddady wrote: There were attemts at making sax free utopian societys, for example Economy Villiage in West PA near Pittsburgh. http://www.oldeconomyvillage.org/ They were very sucessful in generating income and peaceful living. But each one died out due to lack of SAX. I grew up near Old Economy. Visited it several times before I moved away. Thanks for the reminder, Greg. — This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got. Last edited: Jan 18, 2013 08:09:37 Top
Tuck Joined: Sep 02, 2006 Posts: 3166 Denver, CO	Posted on Jan 18 2013 05:24 PM SURFmole wrote: Well, I'm sorry if I offended anyone (especially sax players) by contributing my 2 cents...FWIW though, it doesn't matter...just a personal opinion. Also, with my post (and I'm guessing Jake's as well) I was being somewhat sarcastic. A certain amount of sarcastic humor is part and parcel of the debate. Anyone who likes the Cosmonauts can't be all bad. And Portland surf rocks. It took me a while to get used to trumpet in surf. I'm still not always happy with it. There are different ways to use sax in surf music. There's lead sax and rhythm sax. And there are different styles of the lead approach at least, including at least some sort of genteel subordinate co-leads. I kind of like a wide variety of approaches including some that really annoy people who don't like saxophone much, but I definitely like sax-less surf music too. I don't mind people not liking sax so much as I dislike them suggesting that nobody should. I think anybody who likes surf music is going to eventually realize, maybe with a shock, that part of what they like about some song is the sax part. They may immediately wonder how to replace it with a guitar or keyboard version, either from necessity or from personal taste and inclination, but that's fine. So, maybe we can return to the actual point of this thread, which is precisely what to do with songs that have prominent sax parts when you actually don't have a sax player. It doesn't really matter if you are replacing the sax part or doing without it out of necessity, or taste, and it doesn't really matter if you like the sax part or not either. The technical problem is what to replace it with. Because a song can be too short, or two repetitive, or to thin, or whatever, when you simply leave a part out or replace it with what a guitar can easily do. In some cases you can use a keyboard. But I think the question was really the general one of what to do when you have a guitar-bass-drums combo and you have to handle a song that originally had more kinds of voices. If you are leaving out rhythm parts you have the general problem of how to augment a lead, hopefully not a busy one, with additional rhythm bits to fill the places where the rhythm carried things. This happens all the time in three piece approaches to four piece songs, or two guitar approaches to three guitar songs. I've had the pleasure recently of listening to some Denver musicians trying to uncombine the parts in Astronauts songs as they are played now to play them with larger, more traditional (completely sax-less) ensembles. If you are replacing a lead part, then you have to come up with something that fills the space without just being repetitive. Sometimes you can adapt the sax part. You may be hetter off trying to come up with something new. I think modern bands tend to be more nervous about that than the original bands were. It feels sacrilegious, perhaps, when you see the original song as a classic or canonical item. People often suggest substituting a guitar with a different tonality - more distorted usually - but I think this tends not to work. Maybe the problem is that the sax parts are less distinguished by the tonal qualities of the instrument than by the phrasings that are natural and characteristic. For example, I believe you can slur smoothly across a series of notes that would be very awkward for a guitarist, but you can't generate guitar like glissandos easily, and the equivalent of double picking isn't easy either. And, of course, there are no real chords without multiple saxes. Are there examples of bands using a distorted guitar in lieu of a sax? Could Planet Seven be seen as a case of this? Top
WhorehayRFB Joined: Jun 12, 2008 Posts: 3331 Huntington Beach, CA	Posted on Jan 18 2013 06:57 PM Number9 wrote: caddady wrote: Guitar players have been attempting to emulate sax players for quite some time. 1: Sustain 2: Distortion 3: Bending notes including whammy bar dips. 4: Phrasing (not to be confused with Phase Shifting) All are things guitarists do to mimic the sax. A Roland synth gizmo and sax patch will allow you to sound like a horn if you really want to. That's the kind of answer i was expecting. Did'nt mean to open a debate about the usefulness of a sax in a surf band, or whether you like the instrument or not. I think I may have given a wrong title to the topic. To clarify things up: How do you play this classic tune when you do not have a saxophonist available or do not wish to have one ? It's been mentioned here, but fuzz. — Radio Free Bakersfield--60 Minutes of TWANG, CRUNCH, OOMPH. http://radiofreebakersfield.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/Radio-Free-Bakersfield/172410279636 http://www.sandiegojoe.com/rfb.htm Top
Number9 Joined: Jul 18, 2009 Posts: 499	Posted on Jan 19 2013 01:02 PM . Last edited: Mar 01, 2020 09:27:14 Top
vintagesurfdude Joined: Nov 28, 2011 Posts: 795 Prescott Valley, AZ	Posted on Jan 20 2013 02:19 AM No Sax player? Breath a sigh of relief and recalculate the pay for the band members who showed up. Top
shivers13 Joined: Jul 29, 2009 Posts: 2605 Boss Angeles, CA	Posted on Jan 20 2013 11:24 AM WhorehayRFB wrote: It's been mentioned here, but fuzz. YES!! The Boardwalker's do a real fine job with that in this clip. But of course if you can find a cat that can play sax, get him! — BOSS FINK "R.P.M." available now from DOUBLE CROWN RECORDS! www.facebook.com/BossFink www.doublecrownrecords.com Top
zzero Joined: Jul 09, 2010 Posts: 1153 Lillian Alabama	Posted on Jan 20 2013 06:20 PM hi. i really did not think another sax thread would show up here but nevertheless. i agree with jake. in my mind it would prove the existence of God. but history shows us that sax was an interal part of surf music, just one of many ifluences that came into surf music. so sax has a place in surf music. that can't be denied. it was there and the proof won't go away. now the originial question was what to do if the band's sax player doesn't show for the gig. depends on his place in the band's soloist heiarchy. if he's great, the band is screwed. if he's a tooter than forget about it, play the gig with less sax material and split the money among the guy's that show up. that' what we did!! since we are suppossed to be instrument neutral here, i will no go into my usual tirade about saxophones--in general. OK?? — Enjoying the surf,sun and sand!! Top
Tuck Joined: Sep 02, 2006 Posts: 3166 Denver, CO	Posted on Jan 21 2013 12:09 PM shivers13 wrote: YES!! The Boardwalker's do a real fine job with that in this clip. But of course if you can find a cat that can play sax, get him! Pretty good example of what to do when the rhythm guitarist doesn't show up either. Top
Tuck Joined: Sep 02, 2006 Posts: 3166 Denver, CO	Posted on Jan 21 2013 12:13 PM Number9 wrote: Tuck: Thank a lot for your help on this topic. You're welcome, and I liked the ironic title even if not everyone else got it. I think the summary answer is "You're going to need (to be) a more imaginative guitarist." Top
Number9 Joined: Jul 18, 2009 Posts: 499	Posted on Jan 21 2013 01:01 PM . Last edited: Mar 01, 2020 09:26:35 Top
davis Joined: Jan 09, 2012 Posts: 84 Kentuckiana	Posted on Feb 26 2013 10:51 AM You hire me to play the sax parts on harmonica. Top
Tuck Joined: Sep 02, 2006 Posts: 3166 Denver, CO	Posted on Feb 28 2013 02:07 PM The Krektones w/ Apache & Besame Mucho This answers the question from the other direction. Here a band with a sax/trumpet player tackles two songs which don't have sax/trumpet in the original. So they have to adapt the songs to the instruments they have. I think it works. Top
davis Joined: Jan 09, 2012 Posts: 84 Kentuckiana	Posted on Mar 01 2013 09:18 AM ^ I think it works to a degree, but it would work better if the horns were used more sparingly or in a more supportive role, like to compliment the guitars rather than being out front. Top
FlatRacer Joined: Apr 07, 2008 Posts: 182	Posted on Mar 04 2013 11:42 AM imafunkyman wrote: Kazoo solo! That's what immediately came to my mind, too! Top
crumble Joined: Sep 09, 2008 Posts: 3158 Guildford England	Posted on Mar 04 2013 12:26 PM I'd download the iKaossilator for iPhone/pad which should cost only a few bucks. Dial in the scale pattern, select sax and wiggle ya finger. Almost impossible to make a bum note. Top

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What if the sax player does not show up ?