Noel
Joined: Mar 15, 2011
Posts: 8528
Back in Piitsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up.
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Posted on Jan 30 2012 03:07 PM
Ariel, you're right in a purely technical sense and at the sound wave level, I'm sure there are noticable differences.
I think listening is like seeing, and a certain amount of suspension of disbelief is required to fully participate in the experience. The only true test is to A/B/C the live performance (A) with a vinyl record of it (B) with the CD copy of it (C). Blind test and all. In that sense, I've never liked listening to operatic performances over a PA. The act of recording alters sound. But so does theater acoustics; some sound dead, some have too much echo, some are too bright, and some are just amazing.
Are my ears good ennough to detect the differences between live un-miked opera and a well made record? Sure (Well maybe, I'm a lot older now) but in a room full of hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment, playing that recording, it was a difference without a distinction worth caring about, to my ears. In that place between sitting in the audience and sitting in that sound room, with my eyes closed, I could suspend disbelief and not care. It just seemed so live. The CD was just different and did not leave me able to imagine it was live.
— This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.
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psychonaut
Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 1308
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Posted on Jan 30 2012 03:12 PM
Noel wrote:
Ariel, you're right in a purely technical sense and at
the sound wave level, I'm sure there are noticable
differences.
I think listening is like seeing, and a certain amount
of suspension of disbelief is required to fully
participate in the experience. The only true test is to
A/B/C the live performance (A) with a vinyl record of
it (B) with the CD copy of it (C). Blind test and all.
In that sense, I've never liked listening to operatic
performances over a PA. The act of recording alters
sound. But so does theater acoustics; some sound dead,
some have too much echo, some are too bright, and some
are just amazing.
Are my ears good ennough to detect the differences
between live un-miked opera and a well made record?
Sure (Well maybe, I'm a lot older now) but in a room
full of hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment,
playing that recording, it was a difference without a
distinction worth caring about, to my ears. In that
place between sitting in the audience and sitting in
that sound room, with my eyes closed, I could suspend
disbelief and not care. It just seemed so live. The CD
was just different and did not leave me able to imagine
it was live.
I'm not talking about comparing a live performance to cd or vinyl. I'm talking about a comparison betweet the 2 track studio master 1/4" tape and cd and vinyl.
— https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com
Last edited: Jan 30, 2012 15:12:45
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Noel
Joined: Mar 15, 2011
Posts: 8528
Back in Piitsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up.
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Posted on Jan 30 2012 03:23 PM
I've never had the chance to hear either and can't imagine what that sounds like. Both were made from the same recording? Did you have a chance to observe or capture sound-wave traces of the three output signals? Can that even be done? That would be revealing.
psychonaut wrote:
Noel wrote:
... a bunch of words
I'm not talking about comparing a live performance to
cd or vinyl. I'm talking about a comparison betweet
the 2 track studio master 1/4" tape and cd and vinyl.
— This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.
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Ariel
Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1556
Israel
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Posted on Jan 30 2012 03:32 PM
You're both right, of course. 
Noel - Suspension of disbelief is a great art form, and if the ME has achieved that you don't care if you close your eyes - he succeeded. It's still different, though.
And Psychonaut - your comparison is a valid A/B(/C) test. Of course the goal is to make the difference between media as small as possible, maybe with some kinds of music it's more apparent than others.
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CaptainSpringfield
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 4387
Under the Sun
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Posted on Jan 31 2012 08:05 AM
Jake, we have approximately zero records in common that aren't surf or 60's rock. You should be proud. 
— That was excessively violent and completely unnecessary. I loved it.
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jan 31 2012 09:35 AM
CaptainSpringfield wrote:
Jake, we have approximately zero records in common that
aren't surf or 60's rock. You should be proud.
I'll trade ya!
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raito
Joined: Oct 16, 2008
Posts: 553
Madison, WI
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Posted on Jan 31 2012 10:25 AM
Well, the engineer in me says that if you know beforehand which is the LP and which is the CD, it isn't a valid test.
On the other hand, most CDs are mastered very poorly these days.
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Ariel
Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1556
Israel
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Posted on Jan 31 2012 12:53 PM
Sure, a blind test is the only way with small differences, that may or may not exist.
What Psychonaut did though was more of a comparison, where the differences are pretty obvious. Valid enough for me, especially from someone who's intimate with the material.
Personal bias is always present of course, but the differences between CD and vinyl are most of the time pretty apparent, without needing to resort to scientific methods.
raito wrote:
Well, the engineer in me says that if you know
beforehand which is the LP and which is the CD, it
isn't a valid test.
On the other hand, most CDs are mastered very poorly
these days.
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jan 31 2012 12:58 PM
Vinyl isn't the better format, it isn't portable, it wears over time, can hiss and pop, not as fast to queue up, stops half way through. However, it sounds better. The art is larger, but the art is also lacking in substance compared to CDs, CDs often come with much larger books on the inside with more art and more information.
If CDs sounded better, I wouldn't have vinyl. I don't think people are biased towards any one format, they just prefer sound quality or they prefer convenience or something in between.
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Matt22
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2861
Fredericksburg, Virginia
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Posted on Jan 31 2012 01:12 PM
JakeDobner wrote:
Vinyl isn't the better format, it isn't portable, it
wears over time, can hiss and pop, not as fast to queue
up, stops half way through. However, it sounds better.
The art is larger, but the art is also lacking in
substance compared to CDs, CDs often come with much
larger books on the inside with more art and more
information.
If CDs sounded better, I wouldn't have vinyl. I don't
think people are biased towards any one format, they
just prefer sound quality or they prefer convenience or
something in between.
I agree with Jake. I bought the Cars' latest album on CD as well as on LP and I prefer how the LP sounds over the CD. Maybe it's nastalgia, but I don't think so. The LP has more "depth" to it that I just can't seem to get out of the CD and I play them on the same stereo system.
— Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-2020
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jan 31 2012 01:14 PM
It can't be nostalgia for me. I was raised on cassettes and then the first music I ever purchased for myself was on CD and I discovered most of the music I love(and have since bought), via piracy.
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CaptainSpringfield
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 4387
Under the Sun
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Posted on Feb 01 2012 06:19 AM
JakeDobner wrote:
I'll trade ya!
Sure - what do you want and what do you want to give up? Or you just want to swap the entire collections? I'm not opposed to the later.
— That was excessively violent and completely unnecessary. I loved it.
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Las_Barracudas
Joined: Apr 24, 2011
Posts: 1087
Surf City, NC
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Posted on Feb 01 2012 08:26 AM
This topic begs a question: this new vinyl...was it recorded from a digital master??
— METEOR IV on reverbnation
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psychonaut
Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 1308
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Posted on Feb 01 2012 09:18 AM
Las_Barracudas wrote:
This topic begs a question: this new vinyl...was it
recorded from a digital master??
Our album was recorded, mixed, and mastered completely analog, on tape. No digital anything was used during the recording process.
It was mastered using a 2 track playback tape machine with a preview head. The preview head allows the engineer to make changes in real time before the signal hits the cutting head on the lathe.
These days alot of people cut vinyl records off of a digital master which in my opinion defeates the purpoose of analog. This method runs the signal through a delay, and it's the delayed signal which cuts the disc. Obviously this is less desireable than cuttting off the actual direct analog signal.
We went through great pains and expense to get it mastered purely analog. Not many mastering places have a machine with a preview head. Luckily, in NYC we have 3 mastering houses that are set up for analog; Sterling, JLM, and Salt.
— https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com
Last edited: Feb 01, 2012 09:18:57
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Feb 01 2012 09:36 AM
CaptainSpringfield wrote:
JakeDobner wrote:
I'll trade ya!
Sure - what do you want and what do you want to give
up? Or you just want to swap the entire collections?
I'm not opposed to the later.
Just entire collections. All several hundred pounds worth. Rent U-Haul trucks, meet half way? And I don't want your 80s teen-pop collection, you can keep those.
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dboomer
Joined: Jan 05, 2009
Posts: 262
Port Hueneme, CA
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Posted on Feb 01 2012 09:48 AM
I'm talking about a comparison betweet
the 2 track studio master 1/4" tape and cd and vinyl.
On a technical note ... there are sounds that can be recorded on tape that cannot be transferred to to vinyl. Vinyl depends on a "groove" being cut into it. Music (because of phase) can be recorded to tape that would require a "peak" to be cut into the record which is of course not possible.
This kind of thing requires the mastering engineer to modify the sound to accommodate the vinyl process. CDs, like tape, don't have the problem.
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psychonaut
Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 1308
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Posted on Feb 01 2012 09:59 AM
dboomer wrote:
I'm talking about a comparison betweet
the 2 track studio master 1/4" tape and cd and
vinyl.
On a technical note ... there are sounds that can be
recorded on tape that cannot be transferred to to
vinyl. Vinyl depends on a "groove" being cut into it.
Music (because of phase) can be recorded to tape that
would require a "peak" to be cut into the record which
is of course not possible.
This kind of thing requires the mastering engineer to
modify the sound to accommodate the vinyl process.
CDs, like tape, don't have the problem.
Correct, because of this however vinyl won't replicate alot of the extreme high frequencies and transients that aren't all that nice to listen to. CD's have a wider dynamic range, but have other inherrent problems.
From my experience though, a well cut vinyl record sounds a lot closer to the master than a well mastered CD. CD's impart a brightness, and reproduce frequencies which aren't necessarily pleasing to the ear, and don't really add much to 'musical' or harmonic content.
— https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com
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Las_Barracudas
Joined: Apr 24, 2011
Posts: 1087
Surf City, NC
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Posted on Feb 01 2012 10:06 AM
I've never looked back....don't miss vinyl at all.
I guess it's cool as a novalty item, but pretty much a waste of time, $$$ and resource in my humble opinion.
I just don't see folks lining up to buy turntables because the sound is so much better. Again,...hissing popping white noise....no thianks.
— METEOR IV on reverbnation
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psychonaut
Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 1308
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Posted on Feb 01 2012 10:13 AM
Las_Barracudas wrote:
I've never looked back....don't miss vinyl at all.
I guess it's cool as a novalty item, but pretty much a
waste of time, $$$ and resource in my humble opinion.
I just don't see folks lining up to buy turntables
because the sound is so much better. Again,...hissing
popping white noise....no thianks.
To each his own! The only listening choice you'll be left with are over compressed bad sounding mp3's though, since CD's are officially obsolete, and won't be manufactured anymore.
Personally I take care of my vinyl, and I'll take some surface noise with it all because the depth of sound is well worth it.
Sometimes convinience is not the way to go
— https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com
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shivers13
Joined: Jul 29, 2009
Posts: 2605
Boss Angeles, CA
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Posted on Feb 01 2012 10:44 AM
Vinyl never stops spinning at my place pretty much daily. It's much more than the sound for me, I love the whole ritual of playing records. And I prefer the sound of a record over an CD. CD's that I've ripped from old albums sound amazing. A lot of the problem with new records today is the art of mixing and mastering for vinyl has been lost.
— BOSS FINK "R.P.M." available now from DOUBLE CROWN RECORDS!
www.facebook.com/BossFink
www.doublecrownrecords.com
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