SanchoPansen
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
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Posted on Apr 23 2012 08:37 AM
Behringer 8-Track Mixer + energyXT Software (came with the mixer and upgraded to full version for a couple of $). I am totally convinced that it is no longer necessary to record guitar + bass in a studio. Currently I am playing my pedals and reverb unit into a Marshall JMP-1. My Vibrolux sounds different, of course. But only if perfectly microphoned! We will continue recording drums in the studio, although our drummer owns a nice e-drum set. You will always hear the difference. This is my first try - every instrument played by myself at home except for the drums (recorded with e-drum at our drummers place: click
Let me know what you think...
Edit: I also used some plugins to edit the sound, but not too much. Oh and I'm recording on my desktop PC running Windows 7 Ultimate. Mixing console + Software should be ~200,00$. Did not try to record on my laptop (Windows XP) but I am sure I can get the same results.
— The Hicadoolas
Last edited: Apr 23, 2012 08:41:05
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Ariel
Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1556
Israel
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Posted on Apr 23 2012 09:35 AM
SanchoPansen wrote:
Let me know what you think...
If I may... disclaimer, I'm just a hobbyist and haven't reached results as nice as this yet. I'm nobody, OK...
Very cute track. Some constructive criticism, take from it what you will:
The arrangement needs some more meat to it, i don't know what, something... not more Nintendo, it's a little outdone.
Bass gtr needs more click, definition.
Lead gtr too boomy, could use more highs, less lows. Maybe high-pass it, it would still maintain the character you were going for, just add some more openness to it. I understand why you say you don't need studio for the gtr tracking, it sound very good. But I do hear your medium-small room acoustics, it subtracts from the guitar's presence.
Drums are good, but the hi-hat really stands out, I'm sure you can smooth it somehow, or replace it (if it's MIDI).
Add some atmosphere to gel everything together - a small amount of natural room reverb, by sends from each track.
Some overall compression, with more character.
Please, don't be let down by this, only my uneducated opinion upon first hearing, from the gut. The track is already very nice and punchy, IMHO these suggestions above could make it great.
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SanchoPansen
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
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Posted on Apr 23 2012 12:46 PM
Heya Ariel,
thanks for taking the time to listen to my song. And yes, I really appreciate your opinion. Let's go through it:
DreadInBabylon wrote:
The arrangement needs some more meat to it, i don't know what, something... not more Nintendo, it's a little outdone.
What exactly do you mean here? I really don't get it. We've been playing this song for a couple of years like this and the audience seems to like it. Favorite quote: Nice Mario Theme! 
Some more info would be nice.
DreadInBabylon wrote:
Bass gtr needs more click, definition.
I used the Sitori Sonics 'Low Frequency Atomizer' and I really dig the sound. But to be totally honest: I play guitar and I don't have a clue what I'm doing. I borrowed our bass players 70s JazzBass and bought a felt pick. I bet a real bass player could get more sound out of it 
DreadInBabylon wrote:
Lead gtr too boomy, could use more highs, less lows. Maybe high-pass it, it would still maintain the character you were going for, just add some more openness to it.
I LOVE the sound, but took your advice for my new mix. I don't like the 6/6/6 sound as I play with distortion (ProCo RAT). So my setting is 7/4.5/2 (Dwell/Mix/Tone).
DreadInBabylon wrote:
But I do hear your medium-small room acoustics, it subtracts from the guitar's presence.
Woot? =) How can you hear my room? There's no microphone. Pedalboard -> Reverb -> JMP-1 -> Mixer. But I also tried to improve this in the latest mix.
DreadInBabylon wrote:
Drums are good, but the hi-hat really stands out, I'm sure you can smooth it somehow, or replace it (if it's MIDI).
I HATE the drum sound! It's dead, it's aseptic, it doesn't sound like a real drum at all. Just my opinion, and I reduced the hi-hat a little.
DreadInBabylon wrote:
Add some atmosphere to gel everything together - a small amount of natural room reverb, by sends from each track.
Some overall compression, with more character.
Done...well...tried to...
DreadInBabylon wrote:
Please, don't be let down by this, only my uneducated opinion upon first hearing, from the gut. The track is already very nice and punchy, IMHO these suggestions above could make it great.
Yup...and like said before: Thanks for taking the time! I really respect your opinion and I hope this helped some people to get the idea of home recording. A lot of improvements were done in the last years and it's easy to get an 'very good' sound for recording at home. An excellent sound can only be achieved in an expensive studio + a lot of time.
Oh, and here's the new link: Thanks Ariel
— The Hicadoolas
Last edited: Apr 23, 2012 12:49:12
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Ariel
Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1556
Israel
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Posted on Apr 23 2012 02:06 PM
Well,  whatever you did, it sound more balanced now.
Please, I'm not sure I know what I'm talking about, just my gut feelings as a listener. Thank you for taking my comments in the right spirit.
About the arrangement - if your live audience likes it, then what can I say... But it's different context, and I bet different sound. I really can't explain, but I'm missing some percussive feeling instrument, maybe a chunka chunka strumming rhythm guitar? Really subdued, with no lows at all. Just an idea... My ears just got a bit tired from the overall heavyness of it, but I do like the track, just needs to be less extreme, more refined. A higher instrument could balance it. Maybe.
About the Bass, its your call man  , your music. The playing is fine, just the sound, comparing it to other stuff in the genre, the bass is a bit lost. Maybe a regular pick, or just some EQ bump at 5000hz or so.
Guitar is still boomy to my taste, but it is a powerful sound. About the room... you see I don't know what I'm talking about  But again, a treated studio room, with real mics and amps is something else, isn't it... It just sounded small, now it is a little better yeah.
Yeah, the drums are the weak link here. My suggestion: go crazy with them, edit the s*** out of them, throw a bunch of FX on them, make them suffer! (at least until you can record them for real.)
It still needs to gel some more, IMHO. I sure you've done some processing regarding this.
One thing that's always a good idea is to start again from scratch, with totally different approach for the mix, stereo field, sends etc. Something completely else, and try to get close to commercial releases you like. Then A/B the results and see what you like better. A new fresh mix is always a good idea to take things further, hear the strengths and weaknesses of the track.
SanchoPansen wrote:
A lot of improvements were done in the last years and it's easy to get an 'very good' sound for recording at home.
I wholly agree! Maybe not very good, but good for sure.
An excellent sound can only be achieved in an expensive studio + a lot of time.
Unless you're the Madeira  (regarding the time, not the cash).
An experienced recordist, mix engineer and quality studio with quality gear are and will always be irreplaceable. Oh, and an amazing musician will do wonders in a home studio.
But for home stuff, the bar surely has been risen.
BTW, great stuff SanchoPansen, your playing is great, and apart from all my rambling, this is an excellent example of home recording.
Last edited: Apr 23, 2012 14:30:23
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SanchoPansen
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
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Posted on Apr 24 2012 01:37 AM
Thanks again. Maybe you are right and I should start mixing from the scratch again. Like said before, I am new to recording and this is my first project. Just imagine what a 'pro' could do with this stuff. The program has some features I don't even understand yet
One important thing to keep in mind imo: When you don't have a super duper recordist and mix engineer in your band AND you can't go to a decent studio, home recording might be the answer. You see, I live in south west germany and people here know nothing about surf music. Really nothing. When we play live most sound guys ask me to reduce the 'hall' in my sound. I once went to a local guitar store with my reverb unit and the clerks gave me a box to connect it to, because they thought (and still think) it was a amp head...well, why should they know, they only sell guitars and amps for about 20+ years.
I think you can imagine the studio situation around here. Wanna record a metal album? Brit pop? Hip Hop? No problem...
Will do a new mix, maybe a new song as well and put it online. Will keep you updated. Cheers.
— The Hicadoolas
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togergo
Joined: Jan 23, 2012
Posts: 282
Budapest
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Posted on Apr 24 2012 03:16 AM
Hi! I was reading this conversation, and i want to show you something. Its a little bit off because its not surf, but i just want to show you my 6-7yrs old recordings, because of the tools.
So, the setup:
Soundblaster 5.1 (10$)
Jefe Mic (very)used (30$)
Old aria pro amp - line out (no tube, no digital, transistor)
Cool Edit 2.0 soft / recording + effects (30$)
Sq. Aff. telecaster (cca 200$)
'monitoring system' 10yrs old tape recorder + 7$ headphone
It was simple, easy to use, ok, it has got limits, but:
this song
And everything on this page was made by this setup, except english vocals (free downloadable samples), or the drums/bass in '100s of bugs' song.
Sorry for the OFF, but i want to show you this really cheap setup 
— original compositions (low-level demo stuff /out of tune, etc) myStuff not my best, but i don't like to be in a musician community without anything to show
Last edited: Apr 24, 2012 05:19:27
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Ariel
Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1556
Israel
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Posted on Apr 24 2012 04:00 AM
Great man, sure, we all do what we can with what we have.
One more thing though: I think I can pinpoint what bothers me about the sound, I saw the soundcloud waveform but ignored it. Now I imported the file to my audio editor, and behold - all the heads are chopped off!
Too much compression/limiting. Ease off a bit, big boy, you want those transients in there.
Even if you purposely were going for this thick sound, this is not right, it's way too much, and is fatiguing on the ears.
It's a very common phenomenon, rookies like us tend to squash everything in hoping it will hold with commercial releases, but that's not the way to do it. Mastering is a separate process, and should be handled delicately.
I only recommend mild compression (1.5-2.5/1), just to gel thing a bit, add a bit saturation, but if the mix is not good, no amount of compression is going to help.
That's the source of heavyness in your track, and that makes the guitar sound too boomy, the drums too harsh, etc.
Try it without any compression/limiting, you'll see how it opens up the sound. EQ and use the stereo field for separation, only then apply some warming up compression, gently. If you want it louder, you (and the listener at home) have a volume knob.
Either way, modern rock producers do sin with over compression (sometimes it is applicable, with dance or hardcore), and it's a known disease (see Loudness War), but we are Surf instro dudes. Of course, there's not right or wrong in art, but there is a common knowledge to draw from.
Transients (or in other words - dynamic range), is what makes the music move you, excite you, and make you want to hear it again. At least in Instro (IMHO of course).
To put action where my mouth is, I took the liberty to play with your file (some EQ, maybe too much, some other tools), and this is the result, tell me what you think.
It's harsh, but more to my liking. Hey, we're all learning here
I tried to rescue what I can, but what has been clipped, cannot be un-clipped. You can really hear it on the snare.
It's still loud, but not as much. Want it louder? Volume knob. I wouldn't go louder with this mix, without mastering tools and knowledge.
Last edited: Apr 24, 2012 04:59:07
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togergo
Joined: Jan 23, 2012
Posts: 282
Budapest
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Posted on Apr 24 2012 05:04 AM
— original compositions (low-level demo stuff /out of tune, etc) myStuff not my best, but i don't like to be in a musician community without anything to show
Last edited: Apr 24, 2012 05:18:29
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SanchoPansen
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
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Posted on Apr 25 2012 04:13 AM
Heyas Ariel! I really like your mix! Although the Hi-Hat is getting annoying again. I could offer you to provide each track, but then again: it won't be worth the effort. I'll definitely consult you when we record our next record though
My fav. Surf Combo still is MOAM, so I'm trying to get close to their sound. It's a little bit dull, the reverb only crunches the gutiar sound, but it doesn't have that deep deep reverb. Again, I love the guitar sound in my mix.
I think the loudness was too much in my last mix (almost blew up the speakers in my car at moderate volume). Try and fail!
— The Hicadoolas
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Ariel
Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1556
Israel
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Posted on Apr 25 2012 04:48 AM
Glad you liked it, it was just a quickie to get it closer to what I imagined it should sound like, and yeah, unfortunately the HH were boosted with the rest of the high spectrum.
I could offer you to provide each track, but then again: it won't be worth the effort.
Why do you think that, because it's only a demo thingy?
Anyway, surely I could do much better if you provide me with stems. It's a learning experience for all of us, and there's much to be learned. Collaboration is not a bad idea...
I'll definitely consult you when we record our next record though.
Don't  . Consult with professionals, I'm just a hack with opinions (although I'd love to hear it).
A graphic limiter (for us newbies) is very useful to boost stuff almost to the max while avoiding clipping, and retaining transparency. Old pros always claim "use your ears", and they're right, but when you have sub par monitoring, visual feedback is helpful.
Good luck!
Last edited: Apr 25, 2012 04:52:04
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tubeswell
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 1424
Wellington, NZ
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Posted on Jul 14 2012 04:45 AM
My recording rig for today
AVRI JM, homemade toob amp, SM57 mic into elcheapo desk and into garbage band. The cans help a bit
— He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Surf Daddies
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CrazyAces
Joined: Jul 31, 2012
Posts: 4052
Nashville, TN.
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Posted on Aug 25 2012 11:05 PM
Love my iPad with Garageband for Demos. Have done a lot with an Mbox and Pro-tools LE. Our new record was done on Radar, Older Sony console, LA2A and other tube pres.
— http://www.facebook.com/CrazyAcesMusic
http://www.youtube.com/user/crazyacesrock
http://www.reverbnation.com/crazyacesmusic
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heepeejeep
Joined: Feb 28, 2013
Posts: 350
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Posted on Mar 01 2013 05:56 PM
Zoom H2 stand alone or into laptop w. Adobe Audition 
Last edited: Dec 31, 2013 20:11:02
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Wombat
Joined: Oct 13, 2011
Posts: 251
Byron Bay, Australia
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Posted on Mar 01 2013 10:09 PM
Zoom H4n 4-track recorder (on-board stereo mic for drums, bass DI, SM58 on guitar amp) mix down on cubase on laptop
— 'Surf Music Lasts Forever'
Last edited: Mar 01, 2013 22:11:38
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seafoam_green
Joined: Jan 19, 2013
Posts: 17
Bali
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Posted on Mar 17 2013 09:32 PM
surferXmatt wrote:
How about electronic drum kits? Does any one use one of this in their home studio? I am thinking of getting one - the acoustic drum set I have it driving the wife crazy.
When I was living back in Australia , I used to have a set of Roland V drums with real mesh skins , not the rubber pad type, including the kick drum in my home studio ..., they were great , and the module had a top selection of real top quality drum sounds too , even better than the majority of drum kits some of my mates had . Many drummers would scoff at them until they actually tried them out ..., then they were hooked by their springy feel and tone sensitivity concerning dynamics and tone variation with different parts of the drum or cymbals .... But best of all is they could be used in suburbia 24 hrs a day without annoying anyone ..., plus the midi and sound to tape was always excellent - We also had lots of fun too , like we'd come home for a jam late at night after the bar had closed (all tanked) and we would plug all the guitars etc into amp simulators hooked up to the mixing desk ( withthe roland V drums) and we'd play through headphones , each with out own preferred personal mix coming through the cans , the only sound the neighbours may have heard at those 2 AM jams would have been the acoustic volume of us singing , but without any instrument noise , which was really funny because through those cans the sound was way huge LOL .
Id recommend them in a heartbeat
— Green Rooms, Bombora's and Reverb
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seafoam_green
Joined: Jan 19, 2013
Posts: 17
Bali
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Posted on Mar 17 2013 09:59 PM
Previously I have used a Roland VS1680 (for 10 years) , it worked great, and workflow is much faster than using a computer ..., and they are cheap to buy these days (2nd hand) but I also chose to use valve mic preamps with it , but were not necessary , and I also had a good array of quality condenser and dynamic mics .
I still have that stuff and im soon bringing it to Bali (where I now Live) ....., but due limitations of the files within the 1680 (newer model now link up with your computer), and due to my eyesight not so great these days , I find the screen in the VS1680 a bit too much of a strain these days, so I will be upgrading soon to Pro tools 10 so I can see the screen better LOL , and for its editing and interchange ability with other pro tools users etc .
For an interface , I will buy the Mbox 3 Pro ..., and im looking at getting Toontracks superior drummer for drum sounds .
I also plan to buy a new keyboard controller and in still deciding between the M-Audio Oxygen 25 key , and the 32 key ..., as this simply hooks up to protools and you can then use the M-audios hardware faders and knobs and transport buttons etc for the pro tools functions instead of having to reach for the mouse all the time..., plus the m-audio keyboard controller will be usefull in toontracks , and lastly , the odd keyboard line , or for other virtual instruments.
Although pro tools has many onboard effects , I still have my valve pre-amps and alesis Q20 with echoes from the past
I also have a Zoom H4n just for capturing quick ideas on the fly before I forget them.
— Green Rooms, Bombora's and Reverb
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Spud
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Posts: 666
Oz
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Posted on Apr 24 2013 07:15 PM
I discovered through talking with people and trying things out the following that works for me at this point, I've recorded 2 cd's worth of originals and they sell.
I know the limitations of the gear, the mistakes in the recording process, the errors in the songs etc, but hey, this stuff got the job done, I learnt heaps and had fun!
Software - Reaper
Interface - Edirol
Laptop - Acer crappy thing
Rhode - mic's
Strat
Jazzmaster
Deville
Reverb
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Donald77
Joined: Jun 23, 2012
Posts: 226
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Posted on May 10 2013 07:42 AM
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Number9
Joined: Jul 18, 2009
Posts: 499
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Posted on May 10 2013 04:10 PM
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Last edited: Mar 01, 2020 09:39:59
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Number9
Joined: Jul 18, 2009
Posts: 499
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Posted on May 16 2013 05:59 PM
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Last edited: Mar 01, 2020 09:32:37
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