Showman Amp vs Dual Showman amp?

Joelman

Joined: Sep 07, 2006
Posts: 1506
Redlands, CA
United States

Posted on Jun 09 2008 12:21 AM

I've looked and looked, but have found no answer.
Will some one here give it a try?

What is the difference between the Fender Showman Amp, and the Fender Dual Showman Amp???

I guess I'm asking what makes the Dual a Dual?

Thanks
Joel

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DannySnyder

Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11069
Berkeley, CA
United States

Posted on Jun 09 2008 12:24 AM

4 ohm transformer to allow 2 8ohm speakers in parallel makes it a Dual. Dual refers to the 2 speakers. Regular showman is 8ohm transformer for single 8 ohm speaker.

—

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac'

Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

Last edited: Jun 09, 2008 00:38:54

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Joelman

Joined: Sep 07, 2006
Posts: 1506
Redlands, CA
United States

Posted on Jun 09 2008 12:34 AM

Thank you Danny!!
I suspected it was something like that.
I have looked at the schematics, and came away even more confused.

Thanks again!

Joel

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JakeDobner

Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
5 News Pins

Posted on Jun 09 2008 12:42 AM

I'm going to be academic about it and layout two possibilities.

1.) two speakers means a dual showman as long as it has the 4-ohm transformer.

2.) The words Dual makes it a dual showman.

I heavily favor number two. If it doesn't say dual then it isn't a dual showman. If it is made for two speakers then it is a 4-ohm Showman. Not a Dual showman. I don't think we should be calling Showmans without the work dual 'Dual Showmans'. I hardly think they were calling them Dual Showmans before they got labeled so. Historically it isn't quite right to call them dual.

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diceophonic

Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 2174
PacNW (Vancouver, Wa U.S.A.)
United States

Posted on Jun 09 2008 01:11 AM

The Dual for me and why you may ask? well because it means 2 speakers = more head room it's that simple, I'm a 2 speaker man with any amp I play through, own and prefer over a single speaker rig

—

-Kyle

Beyond The Surf YouTube channel
Beyond The Surf Instagram
The Verbtones @ Instagram
The Verbtones @ Facebook
The Verbtones @ bandcamp

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WoodyJ

Joined: Apr 05, 2006
Posts: 1547
Bethlehem, GA
United States

Posted on Jun 09 2008 02:56 PM

JakeDobner
I'm going to be academic about it and layout two possibilities.

1.) two speakers means a dual showman as long as it has the 4-ohm transformer.

2.) The words Dual makes it a dual showman.

I heavily favor number two. If it doesn't say dual then it isn't a dual showman. If it is made for two speakers then it is a 4-ohm Showman. Not a Dual showman. I don't think we should be calling Showmans without the work dual 'Dual Showmans'. I hardly think they were calling them Dual Showmans before they got labeled so. Historically it isn't quite right to call them dual.

Actually, au contrere, Jake....The "DUAL" on the faceplate didn't appear until late 1966/early 1967. There were lots of '64-66 blackface Dual Showmans that just indicated "Showman Amp" on the faceplate.

The early 1961 models were referred to as "Double Showmans" in Fender literature even though the faceplate still indicated "Showman Amp". All the brownie Showmans looked the same on the outside, Dual or Single.

Regarding the later pre-'67 models, as has been pointed out, the primary difference is the ohmage of the output transformer.

My opinion, having had both: The Dual Showman is louder, as it should be with twice the cone area. The Single Showman has better bass response due to the tone ring cabinet. Singles are really great moderate volume level bass rigs, too.

—

Jack Booth
(aka WoodyJ)

The Mariners (1964-68, 1996-2005)
The Hula Hounds (1996-current)
The X-Rays (1997-2004)
The Surge! (2004, 2011-2012)
Various non-surf bands that actually made money (1978-1990)

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JakeDobner

Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
5 News Pins

Posted on Jun 09 2008 04:15 PM

I don't want people to think I'm and idiot... err... dumber than I already am. I know the word dual didn't start showing up until '66. That is why I don't like any pre-dual faceplaet 4ohm showmans being called Dual.

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zak

Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 2728
1 Link Pin

Posted on Jun 09 2008 05:44 PM

This post has been removed by the author.

Last edited: Sep 23, 2009 17:31:10

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SURFmole

Joined: Nov 22, 2007
Posts: 901
Portland, OR
United States

Posted on Jun 09 2008 07:49 PM

zak
You'll get more midrange out of a single-speaker cabinet and I sure do love my mids.

Yeah...I love the mids too. -Not arguing your observation, but why do you think the mids are more up front in a single speaker cabinet? cabinet design (are you talking vintage Fender tonering cabs only)? speaker interaction?

I was shocked to hear the difference between my 1x12 compared to a 2x12 configuration w/ the same speakers. The 2x12 was a much fuller sound but at the expense of top-end clarity and as mentioned, the "magic" mids. Hopefully if/when my Weber speaker finally breaks in It'll sound fuller and be the best of both worlds but time will tell...

As for the Showmen amps...aren't they exactly the same amp with a different output impedance? In other words you could use a single or dual speaker cabinet with either head assuming the impedance was matched correctly, right?

—

www.apollo4.com

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zak

Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 2728
1 Link Pin

Posted on Jun 09 2008 07:58 PM

This post has been removed by the author.

Last edited: Sep 23, 2009 17:31:25

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diceophonic

Joined: May 20, 2006
Posts: 2174
PacNW (Vancouver, Wa U.S.A.)
United States

Posted on Jun 09 2008 08:31 PM

SURFmole
As for the Showmen amps...aren't they exactly the same amp with a different output impedance? In other words you could use a single or dual speaker cabinet with either head assuming the impedance was matched correctly, right?

You can use a 2 speaker config with a non dual 8ohm Showman head by using two 16ohm speakers each wired up to make them 8ohms
Yep both BF dual and non dual Showman models are AB763 their OT's are the only difference between them.

—

-Kyle

Beyond The Surf YouTube channel
Beyond The Surf Instagram
The Verbtones @ Instagram
The Verbtones @ Facebook
The Verbtones @ bandcamp

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eddiekatcher

Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2778
Atlanta, GA
1 News Pin

Posted on Jun 09 2008 09:31 PM

I've run both 4 and 8 ohm loads with my Dual Showman Reverb (Twin Reverb) heads since '96 with no problems. I do keep 'em cool though with fans and or partial backs on the heads.

I think I read that the very earliest Showman heads had 16 ohm transformers. Anybody got the real low down on that one. I've seen several old 1-15 tone ring cabinets at guitar shows with a single JBL 16 ohm speaker in it. I also passed on a 1-12 Showman tone ring cabinet about 10 years back because it had a 16 ohm speaker in it.......ed

—

Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?

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Joelman

Joined: Sep 07, 2006
Posts: 1506
Redlands, CA
United States

Posted on Jun 10 2008 12:01 AM

diceophonicThe Dual for me and why you may ask? well because it means 2 speakers = more head room it's that simple, I'm a 2 speaker man with any amp I play through, own and prefer over a single speaker rig

Well since this thread has already answered my question and then drifted slightly I'll ask this one.
I have plugged into two amps at once, but would prefer to use only one amp to get that full sound of two speakers pumping out sound.sooooo????

<u>Can I use a two speaker cabinet with my Deluxe Reverb amp? I see that it has an extention speaker jack already.</u>

What do you all say?

Joel

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Joelman Joined: Sep 07, 2006 Posts: 1506 Redlands, CA	Posted on Jun 09 2008 12:21 AM I've looked and looked, but have found no answer. Will some one here give it a try? What is the difference between the Fender Showman Amp, and the Fender Dual Showman Amp??? I guess I'm asking what makes the Dual a Dual? Thanks Joel Top
DannySnyder Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 11069 Berkeley, CA	Posted on Jun 09 2008 12:24 AM 4 ohm transformer to allow 2 8ohm speakers in parallel makes it a Dual. Dual refers to the 2 speakers. Regular showman is 8ohm transformer for single 8 ohm speaker. — Danny Snyder "With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac' Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF Last edited: Jun 09, 2008 00:38:54 Top
Joelman Joined: Sep 07, 2006 Posts: 1506 Redlands, CA	Posted on Jun 09 2008 12:34 AM Thank you Danny!! I suspected it was something like that. I have looked at the schematics, and came away even more confused. Thanks again! Joel Top
JakeDobner Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 12159 Seattle	Posted on Jun 09 2008 12:42 AM I'm going to be academic about it and layout two possibilities. 1.) two speakers means a dual showman as long as it has the 4-ohm transformer. 2.) The words Dual makes it a dual showman. I heavily favor number two. If it doesn't say dual then it isn't a dual showman. If it is made for two speakers then it is a 4-ohm Showman. Not a Dual showman. I don't think we should be calling Showmans without the work dual 'Dual Showmans'. I hardly think they were calling them Dual Showmans before they got labeled so. Historically it isn't quite right to call them dual. Top
diceophonic Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 2174 PacNW (Vancouver, Wa U.S.A.)	Posted on Jun 09 2008 01:11 AM The Dual for me and why you may ask? well because it means 2 speakers = more head room it's that simple, I'm a 2 speaker man with any amp I play through, own and prefer over a single speaker rig — -Kyle Beyond The Surf YouTube channel Beyond The Surf Instagram The Verbtones @ Instagram The Verbtones @ Facebook The Verbtones @ bandcamp Top
WoodyJ Joined: Apr 05, 2006 Posts: 1547 Bethlehem, GA	Posted on Jun 09 2008 02:56 PM JakeDobner I'm going to be academic about it and layout two possibilities. 1.) two speakers means a dual showman as long as it has the 4-ohm transformer. 2.) The words Dual makes it a dual showman. I heavily favor number two. If it doesn't say dual then it isn't a dual showman. If it is made for two speakers then it is a 4-ohm Showman. Not a Dual showman. I don't think we should be calling Showmans without the work dual 'Dual Showmans'. I hardly think they were calling them Dual Showmans before they got labeled so. Historically it isn't quite right to call them dual. Actually, au contrere, Jake....The "DUAL" on the faceplate didn't appear until late 1966/early 1967. There were lots of '64-66 blackface Dual Showmans that just indicated "Showman Amp" on the faceplate. The early 1961 models were referred to as "Double Showmans" in Fender literature even though the faceplate still indicated "Showman Amp". All the brownie Showmans looked the same on the outside, Dual or Single. Regarding the later pre-'67 models, as has been pointed out, the primary difference is the ohmage of the output transformer. My opinion, having had both: The Dual Showman is louder, as it should be with twice the cone area. The Single Showman has better bass response due to the tone ring cabinet. Singles are really great moderate volume level bass rigs, too. — Jack Booth (aka WoodyJ) The Mariners (1964-68, 1996-2005) The Hula Hounds (1996-current) The X-Rays (1997-2004) The Surge! (2004, 2011-2012) Various non-surf bands that actually made money (1978-1990) Top
JakeDobner Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 12159 Seattle	Posted on Jun 09 2008 04:15 PM I don't want people to think I'm and idiot... err... dumber than I already am. I know the word dual didn't start showing up until '66. That is why I don't like any pre-dual faceplaet 4ohm showmans being called Dual. Top
zak Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2728	Posted on Jun 09 2008 05:44 PM This post has been removed by the author. Last edited: Sep 23, 2009 17:31:10 Top
SURFmole Joined: Nov 22, 2007 Posts: 901 Portland, OR	Posted on Jun 09 2008 07:49 PM zak You'll get more midrange out of a single-speaker cabinet and I sure do love my mids. Yeah...I love the mids too. -Not arguing your observation, but why do you think the mids are more up front in a single speaker cabinet? cabinet design (are you talking vintage Fender tonering cabs only)? speaker interaction? I was shocked to hear the difference between my 1x12 compared to a 2x12 configuration w/ the same speakers. The 2x12 was a much fuller sound but at the expense of top-end clarity and as mentioned, the "magic" mids. Hopefully if/when my Weber speaker finally breaks in It'll sound fuller and be the best of both worlds but time will tell... As for the Showmen amps...aren't they exactly the same amp with a different output impedance? In other words you could use a single or dual speaker cabinet with either head assuming the impedance was matched correctly, right? — www.apollo4.com Top
zak Joined: Sep 24, 2007 Posts: 2728	Posted on Jun 09 2008 07:58 PM This post has been removed by the author. Last edited: Sep 23, 2009 17:31:25 Top
diceophonic Joined: May 20, 2006 Posts: 2174 PacNW (Vancouver, Wa U.S.A.)	Posted on Jun 09 2008 08:31 PM SURFmole As for the Showmen amps...aren't they exactly the same amp with a different output impedance? In other words you could use a single or dual speaker cabinet with either head assuming the impedance was matched correctly, right? You can use a 2 speaker config with a non dual 8ohm Showman head by using two 16ohm speakers each wired up to make them 8ohms Yep both BF dual and non dual Showman models are AB763 their OT's are the only difference between them. — -Kyle Beyond The Surf YouTube channel Beyond The Surf Instagram The Verbtones @ Instagram The Verbtones @ Facebook The Verbtones @ bandcamp Top
eddiekatcher Joined: Mar 14, 2006 Posts: 2778 Atlanta, GA	Posted on Jun 09 2008 09:31 PM I've run both 4 and 8 ohm loads with my Dual Showman Reverb (Twin Reverb) heads since '96 with no problems. I do keep 'em cool though with fans and or partial backs on the heads. I think I read that the very earliest Showman heads had 16 ohm transformers. Anybody got the real low down on that one. I've seen several old 1-15 tone ring cabinets at guitar shows with a single JBL 16 ohm speaker in it. I also passed on a 1-12 Showman tone ring cabinet about 10 years back because it had a 16 ohm speaker in it.......ed — Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps? Top
Joelman Joined: Sep 07, 2006 Posts: 1506 Redlands, CA	Posted on Jun 10 2008 12:01 AM diceophonicThe Dual for me and why you may ask? well because it means 2 speakers = more head room it's that simple, I'm a 2 speaker man with any amp I play through, own and prefer over a single speaker rig Well since this thread has already answered my question and then drifted slightly I'll ask this one. I have plugged into two amps at once, but would prefer to use only one amp to get that full sound of two speakers pumping out sound.sooooo???? <u>Can I use a two speaker cabinet with my Deluxe Reverb amp? I see that it has an extention speaker jack already.</u> What do you all say? Joel Top

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Showman Amp vs Dual Showman amp?