maxtib
Joined: Jul 10, 2006
Posts: 47
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Posted on Jul 11 2006 06:21 PM
Hello,
I sort of struggle with this type of picking (take your choice from one in the title), I'm just wondering if you have any tips of on how to improve on it? Usually when I do try I get very tired and sometimes it just sounds plain bad. I'm a relatively good player as well so I'm not jumping into this competely out of the blue or anything.
Perhaps it's just practise, but any tips would be most appreciated.
Many thanks,
Max
Edit - When I try and do it my headstock seems to go up and down a lot (if you understand what I mean), do I have my hand on the body too much etc?
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11048
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Jul 11 2006 07:22 PM
Max,
The truth is there's no magic method to double picking mastery - it's all about practice. There are many slightly different techniques, but the result from various people finding what's natural for themselves. And the only way to get there is to practice consistently. Your arms, hands and ears will tell you what's right for you.
When I started double picking I worked with a metronome ( slowly increasing the tempo) for maybe 10 minutes a day and then played along with some songs. Don't push it, just be consistent in your practicing every day, and before you know it you'll be shredding picks and double picking with the best of 'em.
Danny Snyder
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
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krakatoa
Joined: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 30
cleveland , oh
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Posted on Jul 11 2006 07:56 PM
Danny said it best. Practice practice practice. Even before I knew I was going to be a surf rocker(wanna be right now) I started practicing this technique. i'm still not a pro but a HELL of a lot faster at it. I also practice with a metrenome. I do 2 minutes on eache string at a steady pace. I use the (not sure of the actual name) thumb pointer finger circle. take your pick and hold it like normal and then extend and contract your picking fingers. If you can imagine your pick making a small,thin oval over the string it will help you(at least it helps me)stay on time. Just start out slow keeping a good steady beat. When you can make that tempo sound primarily error free for 2 minutes, jack up the temp (a little). that's what I do. Although it takes a while to make it so you don't want to pull your hair out, if you practice it suddenly start sounding okay. Maybe even good!
good luck,
matt
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Wraydar
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 265
San Antonio, TX
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Posted on Jul 11 2006 08:22 PM
maxtib
Edit - When I try and do it my headstock seems to go up and down a lot (if you understand what I mean), do I have my hand on the body too much etc?
I usually anchor my hand on the body (or string if I'm muting) so that shouldn't matter, don't know why the headstock would be moving. 
I learned to tremolo pick after I had been playing for years so it came pretty quickly to me, maybe a lot of guitar practice is needed. It was really just a matter of learning to pick really fast, but smoothly.
— <img src="klzzwxh:0000"></img>
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dp
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 3546
mojave desert, california
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Posted on Jul 11 2006 09:17 PM
Max,
Danny's advice is right on the money...especially the metronome/drum machine advice. Just be sure start slowly and try to get your up-n-down pick attack to match the metronome tempo...then, incrementally increase your tempo over time. Eventually, you'll develop the forearm strength and endurance to "pick like a Dick" (Dale, that is)...
Eventually, your forearms will be incredibly strong, just like this dude:
image
and then you'll be able to play one of these:
best wishes,
-dp
Last edited: Jul 13, 2006 11:47:32
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Wraydar
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 265
San Antonio, TX
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Posted on Jul 12 2006 08:35 PM
Ahhhh!!! haha I've never seen that getar before
— <img src="klzzwxh:0000"></img>
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SurfBandBill
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Posts: 1487
San Francisco
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 05:35 AM
There's also the ancient debate of whether you have to pick from the fingers, the wrist, or the elbow. I believe that I primarily go from the wrist, but couldn't even say that for sure. Anyone who's seen me play, feel free to chime in.
There comes a point (in my caveman-like opinion) where you just abandon the metronome and pick stuff to bloody hell as fast as you can, by whatever means necessary. But that could just be me....
~B~
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Wraydar
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 265
San Antonio, TX
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 06:38 AM
You forgot shoulder.
— <img src="klzzwxh:0000"></img>
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11048
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 07:56 AM
There comes a point (in my caveman-like opinion) where you just abandon the metronome and pick stuff to bloody hell as fast as you can, by whatever means necessary. But that could just be me....
~B~
Bill, considering the average Lava Rats song clocks in at 200 BPM, I'd say metronomic accuracy is not quite as criticial  
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
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jbanksv
Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 2
Michigan
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 11:00 AM
Hey â new guy here so if Iâm violating some etiquette rules here let me know.
It's been my experience that your headstock is moving up and down because you're trying to play too fast, and it's costing you some control. It's not really a problem if you're happy with the results. But I'm guessing that you're not happy with the results because you've mentioned it.
It sounds like you might be risking accuracy for speed. It might help to practice single string runs constantly. Doing the same run on each string over and over and over again. Don't sacrifice the quality of the notes just to play them quickly. The speed will develop fairly soon, but the accuracy has to be maintained. Donât try to speed it up if youâre not hitting the notes neatly.
My favorite single string run for warming up before playing is:
8-7-5-0-5-0-7-0-8-0-7-0-5-0-7-0-10-8-7-0-7-0-8-0-10-0-8-0-7-0-8-012-10-8-0-8-0-10-0-12-0-10-0-8-0-10 (or 12)
Use alternate picking such that the open string is played on the upstroke.
After a week or so, you should see an improvement in both the speed of the runs as well as your glissing. After a month or so, you should expect to see a marked improvement.
At this point, try skipping strings between sections in the run. Itâs awkward, but itâs just an exercise to develop speed and accuracy. Being able to play up and down a single string quickly is useful and it helps train your wrist and hands, but moving between strings is like starting over from scratch, so slow it down again. Itâs all worth it though, as it will help develop the muscle memory required.
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voodoodentists
Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 62
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 01:05 PM
One important tip is to relax. Act cool if it helps 8). I don't mean pretend your arms are jelly just not to tense up too much.
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SurfBandBill
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Posts: 1487
San Francisco
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 01:30 PM
I guess I have to agree with you there Danny, but we try at least to do some tunes where my rhythmic prowess can show itself off.
I was thinking about this after I responded last night, and I couldn't for the life of me come up with how I developed my "surf picking". I started playing surf primarily in about '01 or '02, and I remember my early attempts at playing in the genre had basically nothing to do with "surf picking", but linear melodies that were primarily held out, and it just seems to my spotty memory that one day something clicked and I could do it. While I'm sure that's not correct, I don't remember ever devoting solid practice time to developing the technique.
One other thing... Wraydar, I'm confused by your "shoulder" comment. Could you elaborate a little? I can't imagine doing "surf picking" with your shoulder being the main axis of movement. Anyone you can think of who does it? Not casting stones here, just curious -- I could be missing out on something cool.
~B~
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11048
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 03:00 PM
methinks he was pulling your leg (or in this case arm )
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
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SurfBandBill
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Posts: 1487
San Francisco
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 03:25 PM
this is what happens when you live in forum-land... your sarcasm sheilds drop a bit.
It could also be the combination of rampant drinking and excessive coffee consumption that has filled my summer thus far.
Either way, keep on pickin' from the shoulder!
~B~
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dp
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 3546
mojave desert, california
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 03:32 PM
SurfBandBill
...It could also be the combination of rampant drinking and excessive coffee consumption that has filled my summer thus far...
I think you might have hit upon something here, Bill...It might have been all the days and nights of alcohol and coffee that allowed me to finally break through the physical pain barrier and develop my trem-picking forearm muscles...
-dp
PS:  facetiousness
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PolloGuitar
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 5091
San Francisco
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 03:41 PM
I think he meant from the shoulder of the road. Like Eric clapton had to go to the Crossroads to learn to play the blues. Maybe to play surf you have to go to the shoulder. I don't know... we all have our peculiar techniques.:?
--fd
PS- Everytime this subject comes up, I wish I could find Rip Thrillby's instructional treatise. He explained the practice technique in a fun and enjoyable way.
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voodoodentists
Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 62
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 03:52 PM
From the fingers emulates circular picking and adds accents to the notes.
From the wrist and lower arm is more even and easier to skip strings.
From the elbow, causes excessive shoulder movements.
You could bob your shoulder up and down to get accents like dick dale does. I wouldn't do that unless you hear the calling of mountain lions every friday between 7pm and midnight. 
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bigtikidude
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 25541
Anaheim(So.Cal.)U.S.A.
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 08:12 PM
voodoodentists
You could bob your shoulder up and down to get accents like dick dale does. I wouldn't do that unless you hear the calling of mountain lions every friday between 7pm and midnight.
HAAA!!! that's great we need to move that to the front news page.
I'm rolling over here. 
Jeff(bigtikidude)
— Jeff(bigtikidude)
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Wraydar
Joined: Apr 21, 2006
Posts: 265
San Antonio, TX
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Posted on Jul 18 2006 08:38 PM
SurfBandBill
One other thing... Wraydar, I'm confused by your "shoulder" comment. Could you elaborate a little? I can't imagine doing "surf picking" with your shoulder being the main axis of movement. Anyone you can think of who does it? Not casting stones here, just curious -- I could be missing out on something cool.
Sorry, that was just my brain damaged sense of humor.
I think that it really doesn't require too much pedantics. I repeat myself; Just pick real fast! And it doesn't hurt bad, it won't last long. Also, I'm probably the slowest-learner and it didn't take me more than a month or two to get it down real good. Granted I had been playing for a while before, I don't know if you guys are new to guitar or just surf (Maxtib, Jbanksv).
— <img src="klzzwxh:0000"></img>
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jbanksv
Joined: Jul 17, 2006
Posts: 2
Michigan
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Posted on Jul 19 2006 10:38 AM
I don't know if you guys are new to guitar or just surf
Sadly, neither, but I came to it from a high gain background.
When the distortion was removed, my sloppiness was revealed and I had to start over. I noticed that all of the 'tricks' I used to play faster hurt me more than helped me.
Funny thing is, my guitar teacher always warned me that it would happen. But I wanted to be Jimmy Page when I was 12.
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