While the notes during those parts may seem fast, they're only triplets of the same note. There are probably thousands of surf tunes with more intricate (non-repeating) and faster notes than on Cruel Sea.

_

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Last edited: Jun 02, 2023 14:49:09

Ok, so with this I am going to become even more unpopular than I already am, but heck if I care. I don't think the Ventures were good guitar players. Good guitar players can fairly easy create their own tunes and the Ventures covered 90 to 95% of their oeuvre, heck even most of their biggest hits were covers. And if you just play covers, it's just a matter of practice, practice, practice without any real creative input. To compare: Hank B Marvin was miles ahead of the Ventures because at least he came up with original melodies, albeit that a lot of them were just rip offs of other original melodies (compare "Sleep Walk" vs "Midnight).

With that out of the way; the Dakotas' version is indeed really fast - I know that, because I can double pick really fast, but have trouble keeping up with them. But then again, I only played it a handful of times and wasn't really interested in covering it. I suppose you keep practicing and at some point you will get up to speed with the tune, so to say.

So now all that remains is that I am REALLY curious about examples mr. Fintastic can give me of the thousands of tunes that are faster than the original version of "The Cruel Sea".

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Last edited: Jun 02, 2023 19:37:08

Jojobaplant - the Ventures don't need me to defend them but IMHO they added their own spin to the tunes they covered and improvised to a degree. I like the solos on their version of Out Of Limits as an example.

Growing up in the US, I had no idea about Hank Marvin and The Shadows. For a very long time I thought Jorgen Ingmann originally recorded Apache. I have become a fan of The Shadows in recent years after hearing Wonderful Land.

DannySnyder - George Martin and the engineers at EMI were known to change speeds on recordings, so it is certainly a possibility. There doesn't seem to be much internet wisdom about the details of the session.

Last edited: Jun 03, 2023 07:43:49

JoJo,
You certainly are entitled to your opinion. The Ventures had two quite original and musically distinct lead guitarists with Nokie Edwards and Gerry McGee. I can listen to a Ventures tune and can usually distinguish who is playing lead guitar. They're style is their "fingerprint". Might that not be a mark of a good guitar player?
A "yes" to that question by me and my opinion.
SO - I would quite well disagree with your statement that the Ventures were not good guitar players. BTW - usually half their albums were original tunes (as in they wrote them themselves; some guitar-oriented musicianship there, perhaps?). The other half being covers. That formula had an interesting side effect:
It kept them going financially for decades.

The Dakotas version is OK; I still prefer the Ventures version and, yes, I can play it at speed - on a super-fast-action Mosrite, of course. Do anything long enough (it's called "practice") and you eventually "come up to speed" - so to speak.

Cheers,
J Mo'

The difference in speed between the original Dakotas and Ventures versions of "The Cruel Sea" is not that much. And it wouldn't surprise me if the former was sped up just a hair, it sort of has that feel to me. But obviously we have no real way to know. But either way, the playing on both is excellent IMO. And yes, the right hand stuff is pretty quick. But I think a lot of modern speed players (from various styles) would scoff at the idea that either are pushing the boundaries of speed.

As far as the comments about the Ventures not a) being very creative or b) not being good guitar players - well, I think you're off the mark on both counts. The Ventures, IMO, actually stylized the entire idea of being an instrumental guitar band, and have kept at it for decades. They have probably brought more instrumental guitar music to more people than anybody. Of course, they definitely did instrumental versions of lots of tunes, including lots of classic songs from many different genres. I think a lot of the arrangements were very creative.

As far as writing, of course, Brian's 1963 Surfing album 9/12 original count certainly belies any idea that they couldn't or didn't write good stuff. The classic "Surf Rider" that so many talk about the Lively Ones version, was a cover of a Ventures song from that Surfing album. That album is chock full of good original stuff. And this from a band that is generally not considered strictly a 'surf band'. I always considered it to their credit that they could actually work as a 'surf band' but also do so much more. If you look at the credits for lots of their albums on discogs.com, you'll see that it waxed and waned. Some albums were themed on other peoples' music, and others had more original stuff. That was their formula for success and it has worked very well.

As far as guitar playing goes - well, they definitely had their own style and played pretty intricate stuff very well. Of course, there are lots and lots of really fine guitar players out there, have been for decades. I tend to avoid discussions of 'Who is a better guitar player than whom?" - comparisons are pretty pointless, this is music, not track-and-field. But I think the guitar playing of the various Ventures guitarists stands on its own. Within the style they purveyed, I think they were very good guitarists. And I also think they were very influential. Certainly were for me and countless other guitarists I know.

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JohnnyMosrite wrote:

JoJo,
BTW - usually half their albums were original tunes (as in they wrote them themselves; some guitar-oriented musicianship there, perhaps?). The other half being covers. That formula had an interesting side effect:

That's fine that you think of them that way - I don't hate them, I have nearly all their albums, but I stand by my opinion. What you state in this fragment is actually not correct. I didn't have time to sift through all the albums, so I just took a quick look at their first 5 albums whereas covers are concerned. The 5 albums combined have a total of 6 original Ventures tunes (when written by Bogle, Wilson cs), the rest are covers or not written by themselves:

Walk don't Run: 1 original
The Ventures: no originals
The colorful Ventures: 2 originals
Another Smash: 2 originals
and
Mashed Potatoes and Gravy: 1 original.

Just saying.

It is possible to find ppl not being great guitarists and still like their music. Heck, there's loads of bands whose music I enjoy, but their craftmanship I abhor.

Not sure which albums exactly I have from the Ventures as there are so many and they're all at my mom's, but I have close to hundred and at least the first 20 are among them. A family member was a big fan of them and when he died I got them. And I enjoy them, except perhaps the ones they made in the late 70's, early 80's; but that's more because they were starting to take on a sort of disco-like sound.

Cheers to you as well!

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Last edited: Jun 03, 2023 11:23:52

Nokie Edwards was a brilliant, and innovative guitarist. Very ahead of his time and super influential. Nobody else played leads like that in the early sixties. Opinions not withstanding, it's ludicrous to claim otherwise.

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DaveMudgett - I wasn't trying to be difficult with my comment on the differences in tempo between the two versions, but I often find that slowing down a tough passage by 5% makes a difference in my ability to keep up.

Redfeather - I am struggling to keep up with picking the repeated notes in the 1st and 3rd bars of the little staff I posted above. The arpeggios and the position to play them are not the issue for me. For this section I like using F shapes, beginning at the 8th fret and descending with the chords.

Last edited: Jun 04, 2023 13:46:26

Thanks to everyone who responded!

Some pretty nice picking, very accurate.
but this version of the song definitely sounds speeded up to me.

Joel

Last edited: Jun 06, 2023 21:13:44