Samurai wrote:

I think we all have a stories how we came to our band or project line up. For me it was trio simply because at the time we had only three people who wanted to play surf in Kyiv, drummer and two guitar players. So the second one had to take bass) During the years I wanted to add a second guitar but wasn’t really successful in finding the right person. The dream of having keyboard player just remained a dream.
Surely playing in trio is both challenging and fun, I never was a really skillful guitar player but I think this challenge helped me to improve a lot. Limitations also bring up your creativity and this is surely the case.
Also a lot of my favorite rock and blues bands are trio (ZZ Top, Rush, Motorhead, Muse, Cream, Grand Funk Railroad, Hendrix, SRV and multiple blues projects) so I guess there is something in it.
I think if I would ever manage to gather band here in Germany it will be trio or four piece with two guitars, not solo and rhythm but more like interweaving parts.
But now working as a home recording composer and player it’s so much fun in making some more complicated arrangements and also exploring different instruments and genres.

Complexity tends to increase at the square of the number of elements. A solo act has a complexity of 1, a duo has a complexity of 2, a trio has a complexity of 9 and a quartet has a complexity of 16. A solo act never has a disagreement about material, or a scheduling conflict regarding rehearsal times, or misunderstanding about who plays what in an arrangement; that's what I mean by "complexity" and the point is that the more people in a band, the more chance there is for something to go wrong. I don't intend to disparage larger groups; one of my favorite bands is Chicago, and that is definitely not a small band.

I've often quipped that the worst job imaginable would be playing rhythm guitar in a band where I'm playing lead. It's not because I am harsh, or unreasonable, but just that the way I arrange is fairly demanding on a rhythm player. In an earlier post, I mentioned that I have used Freddie Green style rhythm chords, but that is not the only approach I use. I actually play a fair amount of rhythm, when I do vocal songs, and I use mostly triads, or occasionally dyads. Triads make for a very focused rhythm sound and make it easier to "shape" the harmonies. Unfortunately, it's not always easy to convey this to another guitarist, and that is why playing rhythm in a band I belong to would not be for the faint-hearted.

Overall, I prefer a sparse sound, anyhow. There's just something about the sound of just one guitar, bass and drums that I love. I saw Brian Setzer in concert a few years ago and loved how he managed to keep the sound going, without a second guitar. It was sparse, in that there were places where all you heard were bass, drum and a lead line, but it wasn't an empty sound. He kept it going, and there weren't any dead spots.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

It's a very small wave. Near the confluence. Near the old Forney museum, now a huge REI. We had 4" of rain in the last two days, the surf should be huge today and tomorrow! Double Over-head!

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

Our guitar shop, Texas Toast Guitars, is at 71st and Lowell. I can tell you all the Mexican food joints that won't give you....well, you know.

Jim Gallagher also had an interest in a bike shop on 64th and Wadsworth.

I really should have made an attempt to meet him.

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

Sonichris wrote:

Our guitar shop, Texas Toast Guitars, is at 71st and Lowell. I can tell you all the Mexican food joints that won't give you....well, you know.

Jim Gallagher also had an interest in a bike shop on 64th and Wadsworth.

I really should have made an attempt to meet him.

I went to high school two blocks nort’ of your shop. A significant part of the man I am came from eating at Mander’s, an Italian restaurant just north of 72nd, on the east side of Federal. Strangely, as a teen, I avoided Mexican cuisine, and never sampled those great places that were everywhere in Adams county. Then I moved to Minneapolis and developed a taste for Comida Mexicana. When I went back to Colorado, I learned what a great place it was, especially for pork green chile. These days, I live an hour from Mexico itself, but I’m not really a fan of most of the local Mexican cuisine. IIRC, there’s a local chain in Denver called Tres Margarita’s which is pretty good.

64th & Wads’; I’m thinking that there was a shopping center on the NE corner, that’s been there as long as I can remember. Sounds like a good place for a bike shop.

Denver was a great place for music, back in the day. KIMN was considered a true leader in programming for the youth market and there were great bands. The Astronauts, obviously, but also Rick Roberts’ Firefall, the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Sugarloaf, Dan Fogelberg, Poco, and a score of others.

As I’ve posted before, I heard Surf as a child, and loved it, but didn’t really think much about it, for years. What restored my interest, strangely enough, was seeing Junior Brown at the Grizzly Rose, and watching him play his Surf Medley from just in front of the stage. This was mid ‘90s, but I hadn’t seen Pulp Fiction, and wasn’t really aware that Surf was coming back into fashion. The next day, I grabbed my Strat and started playing Surf tunes I remembered from 30 years before.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

Last edited: May 12, 2023 23:40:56

That looks interesting! I guess I need at last to learn what is I, IV or V, cause it still a mystery to me)

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki

Lost Diver

https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin

Last edited: May 13, 2023 06:38:11

Jojobaplant wrote:

synchro wrote:
I think of music in terms of I chords, IV chords, V chords, etc. A heck of a lot of music is based a I chords, IV chords and V chords. Key of C, that would be C, F, G7, key of Am would be Am, Dm, E7. There are also II, V, I changes, such as key of C Dm7, G7, CMaj or key of Am would be Bm7b5, E7, Am.

So my astounding composition started with my playing simple little arpeggios, one measure each of Am, Dm, EMaj, Am, and repeated those four measures, to make one eight measure verse. Two verses like that, then a chorus of FMaj, CMaj, Bm7b5, Am, FMaj, CMaj, B7, E7, then another chorus. So I have a 32 bar structure of AABA sections. This song is very simple, however I reserve full copyright. The main reason was to have a song I could record, distribute and use as an example, without any copyright/mechanical-rights issues. Whenever I perfect the recording, I'll make a point to post it here.

Because of the way I learned music (as described above) I never learned to think of music in Roman numerals. In fact, I only know that the capital characters represent major chords and the small characters represent minor chords. If you talk in letters, I know immediately what you mean, but when in Roman numerals I have no clue. Since I would love to learn about this system, can you point me to a website somewhere I can learn at least the basics of this? I would greatly appreciate that!

I’m going to break my reply into several parts, to avoid exceptionally long posts. I’ll start by addressing Roman numerals as a way to classify chords.

You can make a chord out of any degree of a scale. The simplest, would be to simply play every other note, starting at the first note of the scale, to make triads, simple, but very pure, three-note chords.

So here’s a C Major scale and I’ll highlight the chords, in triad form. These would be called Scale Tone Triads.

C D E F G A B C C E G make up a C Major triad. C Major is the I chord of the key of C Major.

C D E F G A B C DFA make up a D minor triad. D minor is the II chord of the key of C Major.

C D E F G A B C C E G make up an E minor triad. E minor is the III chord of the key of C Major.

C D E F G A B C F A C make up an F major triad. F Major is the IV chord of the key of C Major.

C D E F G A B C D G B D make up a G Major triad. G Major is the V chord of the key of C Major.

C D E F G A B C D E A C E make up an A minor triad. A minor is the VI chord of the key of C Major.

C D E F G A B C D E F B D F make up a B diminished triad. B diminished is the VII chord of the key of C Major
This could also be referred to as Bm b5, which will become more significant, later in the discussion.

Now, everything above was triads, simple harmonies. V chords are almost always at least four notes, to make up a dominant 7 chord, as I’ll spell out below. This will become important, shortly. The thing to remember is that Dom 7 chords are almost always V chords, and tend to resolve to the I chord. There are exceptions, such as a 12 bar Blues, where the I, IV and V chords are usually played as Dom 7ths, but Blues has rules of its own.

C D E F G A B C D E F G B D make up a G dominant 7 chord. G7 is the V chord of the key of C Major

There are also minor keys, when are relative to Major keys.

If you play a C major scale from the first degree to the eighth degree, that would be a C Major scale, but if you play the same set of notes from the sixth degree to the 13th degree, it would be an A natural minor.

C D E F G A B C C Major

             A B C D E F G A    A natural minor

A B C D E F G A A C E make up an A minor triad. Am is the I chord of the key of A natural minor.

A B C D E F G A B D F make up an a B diminished triad. B dim is the II chord of the key of A natural minor, but I would suggest that it is good to note that this could also be called minor 7 b5.

A B C D E F G A C E G make up a C Major triad. C Maj is the III chord of the key of A natural minor.

A B C D E F G A D F A make up an D minor triad. Dm is the IV chord of the key of A natural minor.

A B C D E F G A B E G B make up an E minor triad. Em is the V chord in the key of A natural minor, but there is more to the story.

A B C D E F G A B C make up an F major triad. F Maj is the VI chord of the key of A natural minor.

A B C D E F G A B C D G B D make up a G major triad.G Maj is the VII chord of the key of A natural minor.

I wish that I could stop here, but to do so would be misleading. Natural minor keys lack definition, in that there is no natural tension and resolution to the V chord. This is resolved by what is known as a Harmonic minor. A harmonic minor is just like a natural minor, except that the 7th degree of the scale is raised a half step. This has a profound effect on the chords.

             A B C D E F G# A    A harmonic minor

A B C D E F G# A A C E make up an A minor triad. Am is the I chord of the key of A harmonic minor.

A B C D E F G# A B D F make up an a B diminished triad. B dim is the II chord of the key of A harmonic minor.

A B C D E F G# A C E G make up a C Augmented triad. C Aug is the III chord of the key of A harmonic minor.

A B C D E F G# A D F A make up an D minor triad. Dm is the IV chord of the key of A harmonic minor.

A B C D E F G# A B E G B make up an E Major triad. E Maj is the V chord in the key of A harmonic minor, but there is more to the story.

A B C D E F G# A B C make up an F major triad. F Maj is the VI chord of the key of A harmonic minor.

A B C D E F G# A B C D G B D make up a G# diminished triad.G Dim is the VII chord of the key of A harmonic minor.

As with the Major keys, everything above was triads, simple harmonies. V chords are almost always at least four notes, to make up a dominant 7 chord, as I’ll spell out below. As with Major keys, the V chord in harmonic minor keys are virtually alway played as four-note, Dominant 7 chords, and tend to resolve to the I chord.

A B C D E F G# A B C D E G# B D make up an E dominant 7 chord. E7 is the V chord of the key of A minor.

What I have presented so far is a lot to digest. This is sort of a quickie lesson in chord-to-scale relationships. The same holds true for every Major and minor key. The scale tone triads of any Major key will always be:

I Maj
II min
III min
IV Maj
V Maj or Dom 7
VI min
VII dim

It doesn’t matter what key, it always holds true. Here’s A major.

I = A Maj
II = B min
III = C# min
IV = D Maj
V = E Maj or E7
VI = F# min
VII = G# dim

Did you notice that the V chord of A harmonic minor and A Major are the same; E7?

Now, here’s the thing that opened a lot of doors for me, and literally robbed me of some sleep, when I first learned it; songs sometimes shift into other keys, without warning. This is known as a change in Tone Center. Lets start with one that many of us will recognize, the Andalusian Cadence, also known as Walk, Don’t Run.

Am, G, F, E. Am is the I chord of the key of A minor, G is the V chord of the key of C Major, F is the IV chord of the key of C Major, and E is the V chord of the key of A harmonic minor. There are endless possibilities, and I wouldn’t suggest that what I have stated so far is comprehensive, but by learning the scale tone triads of Major and harmonic minor keys/tone centers, you can go a very long way. There are more then simple scale tone triads, for example, such as scale tone 7ths.

Major tone centers:

I = Major 7
II = minor 7
III = minor 7
IV = Major 7
V = Dom 7
VI = minor 7
VII = minor 7 b5

Once you become familiar with these, in both Major and minor keys, you can see patterns jump out at you in familiar songs, and it makes songs a lot easier to learn, because instead of memorizing a series of chords, all you have to remember is the logic of the chord progression. It also makes it easier to hear a song and know what the chords are, just from listening.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

Samurai wrote:

It’s so complicated, but thank you so much, I am a little bit closer to understanding at least some theory stuff. Never could deal with it, just played by ear all 30 years(

It takes a while to sink in, but just being aware of the fact that these chord/scale relationships exist is beneficial to understanding music. At least for me, when it all came together, I realized that it had been there all along, but I had never really been able to see the patterns that govern music.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

"A band is essentially a drummer and a bassist plus assorted novelty acts' - Pink Floyd's Nick Mason.

Synchro just dumped a power load of material on y'all! The keys to the kingdom.

A while back I drew up this diagram for my cousin, attempting to illustrate the idea in condensed form, leaving out any instruction on the creation of the chords.

The short version I deliver to people is this:

Each note of a given scale has a chord associated with it. Leaving specific keys and notes out of it, just learn the intervals between each note and put the proper chord there. Now you have all the basic building blocks for writing a song in that key.

The I is the key signature, circled in green in this image.

The vii should be lower case in this image, since the actual chord is a m7b5.

Last edited: May 15, 2023 17:20:18

I did some experimentation last weekend, using a Zoom R8. I wrote a simple Surf tune and laid down a simple bass line and drum track. Then I laid down a guitar melody line on the first 32 bars, used the Bass VI to play the melody of the second 32, used the third 32 for an improvised guitar solo and brought I home with the fourth 32 bars.

As an experiment, I played a counter melody on the Bass VI on the first and fourth 32 bar sections, but there was no rhythm part. On the second 32 bar section, I played rhythm chords while the Bass VI was playing the melody. On the third 32, because it was going to be improvised, it would be impossible to play a counter melody, so it was guitar, bass and drums only.

It was a learning experience. At the outset, I’m not fond of multitracking when I’m playing all of the parts. I just find it very uninspiring, because the only emotional energy in the recording is my own. There’s no inspiration from other players. Because of that, the recording sounds emotionally lifeless to my ear.

The Bass VI part I tried was theoretically correct, but I found that it had to be somewhat low in the mix, or it detracted. I also tried recording the Bass VI playing in sync, but an octave apart. That worked, but the mix was critical, and it was very easy to have the VI overshadow the guitar part.

The second 32 bar section, with a simple bass part, the Bass VI playing the lead line in the same register as the bass, and a rhythm part on the top three strings of the guitar. This worked surprisingly well. The bass part was in half notes, and the melody was quarter notes and triplets, so the bass part stood apart well enough to stand out as separate.

The third section didn’t turn out well. For whatever reason, I couldn’t come up with an improvised solo that I liked. The sound was stripped down, and unforgiving of any gaps. I’m not sure why this solo has turned out poorly, but as much as I like my little tune, it’s not particularly simulating to the imagination.

The fourth 32 bar section was basically a replay of the first section, nothing to see here folks.

But I did learn a thing or two from this little experiment. Recording is a lot less forgiving than playing live in a band. In a band, I could have conveyed the changes to the bassist and we would have had this song down cold, but in a band, you can adjust the mix on the fly, and in a recording, you have to get it right at mixdown, and live with the results, once you are finished.

In the three piece approach, the guitar you play makes a big difference. I tried playing the lead on three different guitars: a Gretsch Country Gentleman, a CV Jaguar and a Tele with humbuckers. The Country Gent was actually pretty Surfy, and may have been the best compromise for a trio setting. While it is a 17” archtop, it is not at all dark sounding. The Jaguar cut through nicely, but really begged for something to fill the midrange. It definitely left room for a rhythm track. The humbucker equipped Tele pretty much filled the sonic space, but at the cost of less reverb drip. It was a good sound, but wouldn’t be likely to please a hardcore Surf audience.

Perhaps I can best summarize it by saying that for a trio, playing Surf, I’ll use a Gretsch, which has enough highs to drip, but has more sonic body to keep the sound full. In a bespoke Surf band, with a rhythm guitarist, the Jaguar would really deliver, and especially if the rhythm player was using a Jazzmaster or Strat.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.