So, I've came across this question over the last few days and I would like to know what everybody's opinion is on the use of rhythm guitar, organ or any other accompanying instruments in your tunes. Should it be just bass and lead or would more instruments be better?

For myself I definitively say accompanying instruments add value and depth to the tunes. If you listen to any Magnatech tune, you will see that there's always a rhythm guitar, mostly even two to get that "splash" effect on which the lead floats, an organ if I can get a hold of the guy who does the organ for me, etc.

Cheers from Dublin

Albums:
_Introducing; Impala '59; An Evening with; Herr Magnatech Bittet Zum Tanz; Europa

Changing label.

https://magnatech.bandcamp.com
https://www.facebook.com/magnatechmusic
https://www.magnatech-music.com

Samurai wrote:

I was working in trio format for many years and only last year discovered all the existing possibilities of multiple instrument arrangements. I still love trio format for it’s power and conciseness but now find that second or third gutar, synth, percussion, trumpets or whatever may really add a lot to your creative possibilities.

Exactly. I myself only worked in a one-guitar configuration back in the early 1980's for a few years, but then a second guitar was added and the whole sound changed: it became fuller and you get better options in the harmonic and melodic fields. For Magnatech I decided from the get-go that it should have at least 2 guitars not only because of the reason above, but also because I simply like the sound of two guitars.

Albums:
_Introducing; Impala '59; An Evening with; Herr Magnatech Bittet Zum Tanz; Europa

Changing label.

https://magnatech.bandcamp.com
https://www.facebook.com/magnatechmusic
https://www.magnatech-music.com

Almost all the early surf bands had lead, rhythm, and bass guitars along with piano, and drums.

As did most, rock and roll bands. Occasionally various horns would be added.

I feel that a lead, bass guitar and drums can make great music by themselves like, ie. Slacktone.

However, a much fuller/coloring sound can be achieved with more instruments.

Joel

Last edited: May 11, 2023 11:41:37

Multiple for recording. Trio live!

Kitten and The Tonics

https://kittenandthetonics.com/

Joelman wrote:

Almost all the early surf bands had lead, rhythm, and bass guitars along with piano, and drums.

As did most, rock and roll bands. Occasionally various horns would be added.

I feel that a lead, bass guitar and drums can make great music by themselves like, ie. Slacktone.

However, a much fuller/coloring sound can be achieved with more instruments.

Joel

You're right, back then bands consisted of at least 4 persons, especially when playing instrumental music. Since I do Magnatech the "old" way and basically am influenced by European instrumental music and Surf of the 1st wave and the 2nd wave up until ~1985, the music I heard first when I was young, it would be only natural for Magnatech to have at least one or two accompanying instruments. In some tunes I even use a background choir as that enhances and beautifies things even further. I've never been sure why modern bands hardly, or not at all use background choirs to accent certain parts. I mean Dick Dale and Duane Eddy from the old days did use it in some tunes. Heck Duane Eddy sometimes even used strings (Because they're young). I did that only once in one of the tunes of my new LP at the end of this year and that was mainly because the original had them en masse and any good instrumental interpretation of that song simply could not do without in order to preserve the character of the song. Have a listen to the unmastered version of that song what that sounds like (this tune contains background choir, staccato violins in the refrains and piano with a little rhythm guitar):

https://youtu.be/lNgzgnZ8hdM

You're going to need a really good guitarist if you're going to do guitar driven instrumental music with a trio imo. A guitarist that can fill up the holes in the tune, else you run the risk of the tune sounding kind of "empty". Whilst that does have its punk-charm, I do think indeed that a rhythm or any other accompanying instrument can fill up those holes.

Albums:
_Introducing; Impala '59; An Evening with; Herr Magnatech Bittet Zum Tanz; Europa

Changing label.

https://magnatech.bandcamp.com
https://www.facebook.com/magnatechmusic
https://www.magnatech-music.com

Last edited: May 11, 2023 17:11:12

I think that both approaches have their place. When I’m playing live, I strongly prefer being in a trio setting. It gives me a lot of freedom, and I just love the sound of the guitar and the bass. I also am known to use some chord substitutions, on an ad-hoc basis, and it’s pretty much impossible for a rhythm guitarist to know what I’m going to play. When I do play with a rhythm player, I prefer that they stay in the lower register, using three note voicings on the lowest four strings.

Coincidentally, I wrote a little Surf song, and spent last night experimenting with recording it. I used a simple drum track and played the melody solo, as a guide track. Next, I came in with a Bass VI, shooting for a double lead guitar effect, spaced an octave apart. It didn’t work well, because the Bass VI pretty much overwhelmed the guitar, unless I put it so low in the mix as to be almost inaudible.

By the time I finished, I had a lead line, a Bass VI solo, a rhythm guitar part and a bass, which did a simple root-V bass line, until the Bass VI played its solo, at which point I switched to a simple whole note pad, that stayed out of the VI’s way.

It’s a throwaway track, but served as an example of how critical things can get, when arranging. I’m going to take another crack at it this weekend, and, hopefully, come up with a more streamlined approach. I think I’ll start with the bass line, record the lead over that, give the VI its moment in the sun, and then decide what to do about the rhythm guitar.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

synchro wrote:

When I do play with a rhythm player, I prefer that they stay in the lower register, using three note voicings on the lowest four strings.

When I play two rhythm guitar parts in a tune, one plays the chords in power chord form, so only the lowest three strings along with the "clean" rhythm guitar part that plays the full chords without any effect. When power chords are played with a full reverb over the clean rhythm part, it more or less gives me the result I am generally looking for. In my opinion too much reverb (ie on lead and rhythm) overwhelms the tune, so a balance has to be found and in my case I add in a "dry" rhythm part and add less reverb to the lead than I have in the second rhythm part.

Coincidentally, I wrote a little Surf song, and spent last night experimenting with recording it. I used a simple drum track and played the melody solo, as a guide track. Next, I came in with a Bass VI, shooting for a double lead guitar effect, spaced an octave apart. It didn’t work well, because the Bass VI pretty much overwhelmed the guitar, unless I put it so low in the mix as to be almost inaudible.

I am planning to buy me a 6 string bass as well, partly because I like the sound of a 6 string bass, partly because I love lower tone melodies, plus I can use the instrument as a lead AND as actual bass, so it's 2-in-1 Edit: I did have a question about 6-string basses though: if you only play the higher strings on the instrument, does it still need a separate amp? I mean, I can always buy a bass box of the same size as my Quilter, or a cheap second hand bass amp, space permitting though.

By the time I finished, I had a lead line, a Bass VI solo, a rhythm guitar part and a bass, which did a simple root-V bass line, until the Bass VI played its solo, at which point I switched to a simple whole note pad, that stayed out of the VI’s way.

It’s a throwaway track, but served as an example of how critical things can get, when arranging. I’m going to take another crack at it this weekend, and, hopefully, come up with a more streamlined approach. I think I’ll start with the bass line, record the lead over that, give the VI its moment in the sun, and then decide what to do about the rhythm guitar.

How do you create tunes? Are you actually sitting down at your desk and write out the chords and melody lines/riffs? I sometimes do that, when I have something in mind, but sometimes I also just play a set of chords I know fit together, hustle them a bit to get chorus, refrain, bridge etc., create a simple metronome tick and then just jam on top of that to see what comes rolling out of the tree. I'd say 4 out of 10 times sth useful comes from that. Other times I take the chords from an existing (vocal song) add a few (missing) chords and create a new melody on top of that ending in a result that is nowhere near the original song I took the chords from, so I won't get any trouble concerning copy rights, royalties etc.

Albums:
_Introducing; Impala '59; An Evening with; Herr Magnatech Bittet Zum Tanz; Europa

Changing label.

https://magnatech.bandcamp.com
https://www.facebook.com/magnatechmusic
https://www.magnatech-music.com

Last edited: May 12, 2023 05:39:05

This will not surprise some people, but I always like having accompanying instruments. Trios can sound great but definitely benefit from arranging songs as a trio. We've played with The Delstroyers frequently over the years who are a fantastic and big sounding trio. They do have some extra parts on their recordings though. Sometimes, I envy the trios . . . .

When The 'Verb started, we were a four piece with Jake driving on rhythm guitar. This was born out of us not having a drummer for a few months when we first started writing songs back when we were teenagers. Once we were able to add Mike, it freed us up to have more variety. Mike could be another lead guitar as well as keys. I could then also play trumpet live without us losing lead guitar at the same time. When The 'Verb recorded, we would show up to the studio well rehearsed and record live. The first full length album, "Reverberated for Your Pleasure" we did 18 songs (16 plus two secret cover tracks that weren't supposed to be on the CD master - oops) recorded and mixed in three long days. Because of this, we did not do very many overdubs or additional parts. (We also tended to play the songs a little faster than we meant to - another oops.) For the second record that wasn't released until years after we stopped performing regularly, "Only 'Verb Can Break your Heart", we did 13 songs in five days with a bit more going on (more horns, piano, acoustics, etc.).

Fast forward years and a few non-surf bands later, The Desolate Coast was born out of a quick side project between me and Wendell who had drummed for a couple other bands with me and filled in on drums for The 'Verb. With just the two of us, there were no illusions of trying to replicate a live product, so there were a lot of layers, additional parts, horns, and piano on the first record, "Time Slips Away". When it was coming time to release that, we formed a five piece group (2x guitar, baritone guitar, bass, drums, and a couple of live songs with trumpet), and I had to figure out how to cut the parts down to five.

Now, starting back with our second album coming out next week, "Without A Planet", I arrange some songs thinking about we could perform it live and on record, and others I don't worry about that and just think of what we could do on the record. Either way, the album version will probably feature more parts and accompaniment than a live version. Some songs, I don't even bother thinking about performing live. I like the freedom of trying different parts and instruments on the recording and don't worry about if it's traditionally surf or not.

I just try to make it pretty and catchy. The worst that will happen is I just throw it out and have to write something else.

Here's the latest video from the upcoming album that has a bunch of guitars, brass, and choral like backing vocals. Live, we play it rhythm, two leads, bass, and drums though.

-Eric

New music!
https://thedesolatecoast.bandcamp.com/releases
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Also:
https://theverb.bandcamp.com/
https://www.facebook.com/theverbseattle/

cirecc wrote:

This will not surprise some people, but I always like having accompanying instruments. Trios can sound great but definitely benefit from arranging songs as a trio. We've played with The Delstroyers frequently over the years who are a fantastic and big sounding trio. They do have some extra parts on their recordings though. Sometimes, I envy the trios . . . .

A couple of years ago I saw this surf trio and with trios I have sth like: the guitarist needs to be a great soloist as well as a great rhythm guitar player, else the whole thing sounds terribly empty. There's a few, but not many. At least not what I've seen. In the US there may be a few that are really good, but I'm in Europe and pickings are slim. Now, with the trio I saw, the guitarist tried to compensate with masses of reverb. And I am sure I don't have to tell you how overwhelming an effect reverb can be if used unwisely. At some point their music reminded me of 1982, when I temporarily took part in a band that wanted to sound like the Cocteau Twins, ergo masses of reverb/chorus/flanger. In one song I only had to play the high E and B string in four tones. But the massive amount of effects filled the room completely.
That same idea I got when I saw these guys. His 2-4 tone melodies weren't that different from what a lot of surf bands do nowadays, but because of the high amount of reverb it kind of filled the sound. Whether it was good or bad, I will stay away from, but it wouldn't be my style. I guess he just needed some extra help.
I don't want to play like that. I want to sound live as much as I sound on records. If you put all sorts of stuff into your recordings, I just think it's going to be very hard to do things live if you're a trio. Many times back in the 80's I went to see bands and on the record it all sounded great, but live was a very different story. One particular example was a Dutch post-punk band called sth like "Clan of Xylo" or sth like that. They came from the same town I was living in at the time, and their album at 4AD records sounded brilliant, yet they had been using about 8(!) studio musicians on that record and none of them were on the stage. So all we got to hear was a muffled down version of the songs that on the records sounded like a sort of digital rain. Most of the ppl I knew said that it was massively disappointing. Same goes for a couple of Jeffrey Lee Pierce (from the Gun Club) shows.

Given that I am originally a rhythm guitarist and due to the structure and style of the Magnatech tunes, there have to be 2 rhythm guitarists in the backing band I will form next year. Preferably an organist, and I will skip the choir parts of my music as it has to be practical too. After I've moved back to Germany, I know there's a few bands who want to be my backing band, so I can select what I want and should you ever go to a Magnatech show, I promise you it will sound the same as it sounds on the recordings. Former band members always called me "Billy Corgan", so you can guess that I will get it in the shape I want

Albums:
_Introducing; Impala '59; An Evening with; Herr Magnatech Bittet Zum Tanz; Europa

Changing label.

https://magnatech.bandcamp.com
https://www.facebook.com/magnatechmusic
https://www.magnatech-music.com

We (The AquaSonics) did a song about Denver surf - it's on an SG101 comp, among other places. It's called Surf the Platte.

https://surfguitar101.com/downloads/details/612/

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"