Tuck
Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 3166
Denver, CO
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 01:49 AM
This follows on a meandering thread in Gear.
=======
Sonichris
Klas
BTW, notice on the photo how none of them wanted to play bass!
Never trust a band without a bass player -
Chris
P.S. keyboard or organ is NOT a replacement for bass ( this means you, Ray Manzarek)
I think the Doors always had a real bassist either in the studio or live, but for the life of me I can't remember which ... I guess live is more likely.
Anyhow, that does bring up an interesting point. I was looking today at some stuff on the early bands today, and I finally realized that the Belairs never had a bassist from 1960 or so until they reorganized after Betrand left in 1963. Their first bassist was Steve Lotto in '63. His arrival is mentioned in the notes for the CD Rare Surf Vol. 1: The South Bay Bands, but I assumed he was replacing somebody. But no. Apparently they went three years and many live appearences, even a few recordings, without a bass. The original Mr. Moto has no bass! (So, there must be an in joke about learning the bass line to Mr. Moto somewhere.)
Even before that note in Rare Surf Vol. 1, I had noticed that the personnel list on the back cover of IL 1007 The Belairs: the Origins of Surf Music 1960-1963 didn't mention a bassist anywhere, though with the name Lotto in hand I noticed that one song The Shimmy was credited to S. Lotto. (Man, I love being able to see credits. One nice thing about LPs. They always have them, and they're in readable type, more or less.)
I was struggling with whether this was possible - "What, you're saying that atoms didn't used to have electrons?" - when I realized I had overlooked the essay by Paul Johnson inserted in the LP. I think I do remember reading it once, long ago, but I had forgotten about it. What a beautiful essay! What an accomplished essay!
Anyway, Johnson says clearly that the early Belairs - named for sax player/manager Chaz Stuart's ride! - never had a bassist until Lotto joined them in 1963, after Bertrand and drummer Dodd left to form the Showmen. Apparently Lotto joined the Belairs just after Art Fisher and George Dumas came in from the Journeymen to replace Bertrand and Dodd.
Here's what Johnson says about the lack of a bass player:
"At the time we didn't think it to important to find a bass player (they were scarcer than hen's teeth anyway) so we didn't pursue that; but we did need a sax player. The closest we could come was Chaz Stuart - a clarinet player that Delvy recruited from the danceband."
This remark on the difficulty of finding a bass player, vs. the importance of finding a sax player, ties in with several things I've noticed recently elsewhere. One is that Randy Navert, bassist for the Challengers, had to buy a bass (and learn to play it) to join the fledgling Challengers in 1962. The other is the extent to which bass players are mentioned as originally having been players of other instruments, or the extent to which it develops that bass was covered by several different people as an alternate instrument.
This latter point appears in the discussions of the personnel of the Rhythm Kings and the Revels, for example. The Rhythm Kings used both Al Garcia (trumpet, flute) and Vince Bumatay (sax) on bass. The 1958 pre-Revels Gil Serna & the Rockets had two guitars, two saxes, drums and no bass. However, a 1959 picture of the Revels shows Serna (guitar) holding a bass. A 1960 picture shows Brian England (guitar) holding the bass. Later Revels bass player Sam Eddy was the piano player until his piano fell of the stage in Kansas in 1960. He'd been doubling on bass and after that he was the bass player. I imagine there are other similar stories.
In deference to Chris' sensibilities, and those of bass players everywhere, it seems that it wasn't so much that sax players were more important than bass players as that both were important, but sax players were more conceivable and available. A prosperous working band might own an electric bass, but few people specialized in it. I guess that's a bit hard to believe today, isn't it?
Here's thought - maybe this historical period explains the jokes about bass players, too. So, at the risk of kidnapping my own thread, here's a new bass player joke (I hope): "Anyone can play the bass! As long as they can play something else, too."
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Spud
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Posts: 666
Oz
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 03:28 AM
Um, we don't have a bass player at the moment, actually it's been about 6 months since our bass went west, they weren't reported missing until 2 weeks later.
Just kidding, we are just having a hard time trying to find a new one.
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spskins
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3776
tn
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 08:36 AM
As far as the Doors go (one of my least favorite bands, btw), I think they mostly used bass in the studio and not live. I only know this because they often used jazz bassist Leroy Vinnegar who made his home in Portland after LA.
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 08:41 AM
spskins
As far as the Doors go (one of my least favorite bands, btw), I think they mostly used bass in the studio and not live. I only know this because they often used jazz bassist Leroy Vinnegar who made his home in Portland after LA.
This is the truth.
And as for Manzarek doing the bass live, it wasn't a great sound but kudos to Ray for wanting to do that.
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PolloGuitar
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 5097
San Francisco
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 11:40 AM
I just don't see how you could have a band without a bass... Sure Mr. Moto is great, but maybe it would have been even better with a bass. Santa Cruz band The Concaves went without a bass for a few years, they just had no groove. IMO, they improved greatly when they added a bass.
Prince- "When Doves Cry" - no bass!
--fd
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Tuck
Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 3166
Denver, CO
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 06:41 PM
spskins
As far as the Doors go (one of my least favorite bands, btw), I think they mostly used bass in the studio and not live.
Thanks for clarifying that! I remember reading an interview with Ray Manzarek in which he talked about the bass thing, but I couldn't remember what he said. I've actually always liked the Doors myself, though mainly pre-Morrison Hotel, which is awkward, because folks seem to love mainly that album.
I heard an interesting interview with Ray Manzarek on Public Radio not too long ago. He went into the structure and composition of Light My Fire in great detail.
Even though I like the bass sound and find it hard to imagine a band without one, there are more examples of bands without them than you'd think, so perhaps my imagination is just a bit weak!
FWIW, I think that the bass in most three-piece bands ends up being more of a rhythm guitar, whatever the actual instrument is, with the drums taking on aspects of the bass part. So maybe most three piece bands don't really have "a bass" in the usual sense.
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Stormtiger
Joined: Dec 12, 2006
Posts: 2683
Ventura, CA
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 07:02 PM
House of Freaks, one guitar, one drum, big sound. Jon Spencer Blues Explosion and Sleater-Kinney are 2 more bassless bands.
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Tuck
Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 3166
Denver, CO
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 07:16 PM
PolloGuitar
I just don't see how you could have a band without a bass...
Me, too, but something worked for the Belairs and a large audience of original surf music fans for 2-3 years.
Sure Mr. Moto is great, but maybe it would have been even better with a bass.
It's an easy theory to test out. Folks are always looking for backing tracks to play over. Here's one to play under. Actually, any of their early singles or more recent unreleased material: Volcanic Action, Kamekaze, Little Brown Jug, etc.
Actually, I was thinking, what versions of Mr Moto do I usually hear? Surely they have bass. I decided that I don't hear one in particular, barring the local groups, but they do all have bass. Maybe the recorded version I've heard the most, other than the Belairs', is the one by the Bone Sharks, with Satan's Pilgrims and Jon & the Nightriders close behind. Locally, I must have heard the Beloved Invaders play the song 20 plus times by now, and they always have a bass, though currently they are contented without a rhythm guitar.
In the absence of the bass, the trap drum is really prominent in the Belairs version.
Prince- "When Doves Cry" - no bass!
Not one of my favorite bands.
I've heard a couple of surf-band attempts at a lead bass, which is always an interesting novelty. The Wedge waxed one that way, and I once heard Bob Cannistraro of the Beloved Invaders do at last a round or two of Misirlou on a bass live. I think it was Chris Fesker from the Aquasonics on rhythm, but that was a complex gig to watch and the details are now a little fuzzy to me. Maybe by that point it was back to the Invaders rhythm guitar of the time, Dario Rosa.
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Tuck
Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 3166
Denver, CO
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 07:22 PM
I've always kind of wondered how the double-necked phase of the Neptunes worked out in practice. I assume there wasn't always someone on base, or, rather, bass. I've never tried to figure it out on the CD.
Hound Dog Taylor & the Houserockers were a three-piece blues band that traded the bass around and didn't always use it. More like the situation in the Rhythm Kings and the Revels. I don't know that those bands didn't always have somebody on base, but they were a lot bigger.
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RobbieReverb
Joined: Feb 28, 2006
Posts: 2354
San Jose, Ca.
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 07:24 PM
I think the Doors always had a real bassist either in the studio or live, but for the life of me I can't remember which ... I guess live is more likely.
quote]
The Doors never toured with a bass player, and rarely
used a bass player in the studio. Doug Lubahn, Jerry
Scheff, and Lonnie Mack (the guitar great) played bass
on a few isolated cuts in the studio. Ray Manzarek did
about 95% of the studio bass playing with his keyboards.
Bob
— Bob
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SurfBandBill
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Posts: 1487
San Francisco
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Posted on Aug 20 2007 07:35 PM
There are definitely some bands who can pull it off. In my mind, The Black Keys are a band that pull off the power-duo sound really well. For surf, though, you just gotta have someone laying down the low end. It's the only thing that gives guitarists (one, two, or three) the springboard to go off.
~B~
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JeffLeites
Joined: Mar 27, 2006
Posts: 343
North Hollywood, California
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Posted on Aug 21 2007 12:16 AM
The Doors was one of my favorite groups. Ray Manzarek, the keyboard player, played the bass line with his left hand using a keyboard bass like this this Fender Rhodes bass:
image
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Spud
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Posts: 666
Oz
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Posted on Aug 21 2007 12:33 AM
We have a 'new' bass player trying out in Friday night, I'm looking forward to how the sound should be improved for our 'surf' instro's.
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estreet
Joined: Mar 17, 2007
Posts: 839
United Kingdom
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Posted on Aug 21 2007 01:51 AM
Can't believe no-one has mentioned The Cramps in this thread. When I bought their Single of 96 Tears/Surfin' Bird back in (looks at label) 1978 (OMG.... nearly 30 years ago...gasp!) I used to amuse myself by overdubbing bass-lines on it on my Sony Reel to Reel recorder. They did have a bassist in later years.
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Spud
Joined: Jul 23, 2007
Posts: 666
Oz
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Posted on Aug 21 2007 02:45 AM
Or the 'White Stripes' - 1 guitar + drums
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Sonichris
Joined: Mar 06, 2006
Posts: 1892
Wear gloves - I'm in the Rockies
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Posted on Aug 21 2007 11:04 AM
To be honest, the "never trust a and without a bass player" quote I stole, I don't know where I heard it, I just thought it was funny. It was in reference to 80's synth bands. The Ray Manzerek shot was probably uncalled for, but still funny I think. I heard Ray on the Radio one day talking about how The Doors didn't have a bass player, then it occured to me.
The Belairs songs without a bass still sound good because of Paul Johnsons rhythm capabilities.
Boulder Bob told me the Bass is the instrument that controls the beat, tempo and groove. a good bass player can make the drummer follow him. I always thought it was the other way around, but the more I think about ti, the more true it is.
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WR
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3832
netherlands
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Posted on Aug 21 2007 04:25 PM
well I thought it was funny Sonichris - and Im a huge doorsfan, I think Ray Manzarek's a swell player, and besides, aren't organs/pianos designed to take care of bass, harmony and melody? I dig Jimmy Smith!
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bigtikidude
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 25568
Anaheim(So.Cal.)U.S.A.
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Posted on Aug 21 2007 04:42 PM
yeah the Piano player for the Bel Airs was really hammering out those low notes, plus Paul had a very full round sound on his rhythm, so it gives the impression if you are not listening real close that there is a bass there.
Jeff(bigtikidude)
— Jeff(bigtikidude)
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Ron-Rhoades
Joined: Aug 19, 2006
Posts: 958
Kekaha, Kauai, Hawaii
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Posted on Aug 21 2007 04:53 PM
Sonichris.......i have to respectivley disagree with this:" the Bass is the instrument that controls the beat, tempo and groove. a good bass player can make the drummer follow him. I always thought it was the other way around, but the more I think about ti, the more true it is." Maybe it's just a joke??? The drummer controls all that stuff and the bass player is just that....the bass player. 
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LRDrummer
Joined: Apr 06, 2006
Posts: 94
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Posted on Aug 21 2007 05:09 PM
Ideally the bassist and the drummer should be strong enough that no one is "leading" the other. You want the rhythm section locked. Though I think I would be more inclined to notice a weak drummer as opposed to a weak bassist.
Furthermore, The Lava Rats just did a bass-less gig. It was interesting to say the least and even a success in many ways. Still, I don't see us making a habit out of it.
— drummer-Lava Rats
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