TFJ
Drum volume in the mix: drums have their place in the mix which can differ with a 3-piece vs a 4 or 5 piece band. There is only so much room in each frequency, so drums too loud in a given mix might drown out certain frequencies of the bass or other guitar & I don't think you want the drums covering up or overshadowing the guitar...or maybe you do, depending on the band. That being said, most bands are a democracy, so when mixing a CD with limited time and monetary constraints, compromises have to be made. Its always nice to have an outside ear there to inject some objective input, but that's not always possible. I certainly don't get off on hearing myself play, but do have some opinions about how loud certain things should be in a mix, but I am only one vote. it also depends on how the drums were recorded as well - if everything was isolated, one can boost or cut various elements of the drum kit, but if using fewer mics, you are somewhat limited in what can be adjusted during mixdown. For example, in our first two albums, we utilized more tracks & had a lot more freedom to adjust the snare vs toms vs whole kit, whereas on the latest CD, I think it was just snare on one track and "rest of the kit" on two other tracks (left and right). We miked everything, but directed everything to a finite number of tracks, so we were somewhat limited in that regard. I certainly would have done some things differently, but its all in the history books now - all we can do is learn from what was done and try to improve on it the next time. I think overall, we achieved a better guitar sound at the slight expense of the drum sound.

This is a quote from Jim's response to the surf drumming thread. I wanted to comment and give my opinions on recoding techniques in this forum. Fell free to give your subjective thoughts. Remember that since this forum is new, we're creating a new knowledge base, so even if you said it 10 times on the yahoo groups, feel free to rehash it here again.

TFJ confirmed something I suspected regarding the latest Nebulas album. I had a feeling the album was recorded a little different than their earlier two, and hearing that the drums were mostly pre-mixed explained it.
Now, let me say this first - I'm using this as a platform for general discussion. Don't get the wrong ieda I'm criticizing the new Nebulas album, because I'm not (I like it).

I know all about the challanges pre-mixing presents during mix-down.
Basically, I found out that whenever something was pre-mixed, it usually ended up sounding good by itself, but the final results left something to be desired.

I like a "live" type of sound, which generaly means lots of room mic sound. But, unfortunately, what works for slow songs, with one guitar, doesn't work for fast songs with 2 or 3 guitars with lots of reverb (not to mention additional instruments). I find that in that case, using close mics is a must. Pre-mixing them should be avoided if possible. Why?
because usually what happens, is you end up with a stereo track where the low and mid frequencies of the toms get burried eventhough you thought they sounded way too loud all by themselves.
Some people like to premix just the toms+floor tom - bad idea, now the floor tom would be burried. No more powerful tribal floor tom in your mix buddy.
Micing the hi-hat - don't do it! It's the loudest thing in the kit. If anything, you'll need a way to remove it from the other mics. Instead :
Mic the ride. Yes - I found that using a small diaphragm condenser from beneath (phase reversed, of course) helps have control over how clear it sounds in the overall mix.
Regarding room mics: It's amazing how much a $2,000 Neuman helps to get a good room sound
Found that out first hand: when recording the Astroglides' 3rd album, we had the "normal" session where the room mics were a couple of ROde (don't know how to do the Norsk/Danish O with a slash through it). The room sound was not very good, and we couldn't use too much of it in the mix.
Then, we had a session of live to 2 tracks, where the studio got a new Neuman. Just one, placed in the same room high up. The difference was night and day, and we could bring up the warm room track high up in the mix, creating a much better sound. Problem is, I don't think any of us guys can afford even one of these (and I would prefer to use 2), but if I could I would rent/borrow a pair and use them as room mics, not only on drums, but on guitars also.
I think the sound (for a surf band) should start with a great stereo room track (mono works too, but stereo offers more "real air" feel, IMHO), and then the individual mics brought up as needed. Of course, the slower the music, the less instruments, and the more balanced the drummer is, you can get away with less close mics.

Opinions?
Ran

The Scimitars

I don't think it's the number of mics as much as the number of tracks. For the last album, everything was miked, we just had to consolidate everything to a few tracks - given that, we probably could have gotten similar results from fewer mics. On past projects, we would also mike everything...snare top and bottom, overheads, ambient mics, you name it but used more tracks & we wound up not even using the overhead mic tracks - the tom mics seemed to pick up the cymbals more than enough. This time around, everything was miked, but we used fewer tracks- and we were going for a "live" sound - not just for the drums, but we wanted all of the instruments in the same room.

the paradox is of course, the more mics and tracks you have, the less need for recording expertise, experience, a general sense of knowing wtf you're doing, and a great room with a great room-sound ... in reality obviously, things are reversed, and it's the beginning, not-earning etc musician who has to deal with the least and cheapest equipment.

one advantage of close micing (and than having to add some sort of echo) is that you're less dependent of the room-sound. again, perfect for recording in justy the rehearsalroom, and again, against the natural way it goes.

I'd think two-mic recording 'potentially' gets the best most authentic sound (I only have two ears anyway ....) BUT- it becomes VERY VERY VERY dependent of mic quality and room quality ...

of course, my completly uninformed shot in the dark opinion. feedback from more experienced drummers/recorders mucho appreciated.

WR

Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."

https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/

I agree with trying to use the least possible number of mics and tracks, and for using a more ambient sound...if it works without any dropouts of certain drums, than it usually sounds the best for Surf music. But my suggestion for having extra mics on extra tracks is for those situation where you're not sure how the mix will sound. I wasn't saying that you need to start with all the tracks in the mix-down. I would want to start with the overheads and bass drum, or with the room mics, and only bring the close mics tracks up if absolutely needed. But, from past experience, the faster the song, the more instruments, you have a problem of some parts getting burried. This is where having those extra tracks serves as an insurance policy that you won't have to make a too painful compromise (you will have to compromise something, as Jim said, becasue there is just so much audio info competing for the same frequencies). Of course, if you end up using a bunch of mics and record them all pre-mixed to 2 tracks, then all bets are off, you're stuck with what you thought was a good mix, if you played your cards right, it will come out good, and if not, you'll just have to live with it.

This 3 mic kit looks very interesting. Wouldn't we all want to have the budget to experiment with that? Finding a properly equipped recording studio is quite a task.

For a real traditional sound you can try:
http://www.soilsouth.com/

I heard very good things about Mark Neill and his studio. Not a lot of multi-tracking there, so the playing better be on the level of the top notch musicians that recorded there.

Ran

LBOPdot_Net_
Our Lost Boys' drum sound tends towards the ambient (more room mic than direct) as it sounds more natural with all the reverb'ed guitars.

For surf/instro, it's probably best with the "less is more" approach. I read recently (Recording or EM mag, forget which) about the Earthworks Recording Drumkit System. Using just two overheads and a kick mic (with a special inline pad) you can get great results.

http://www.earthworksaudio.com/29.html

I like this mic kit, but it's a little pricey. If we're lucky, the next studio we book time with will have this Earthworks system in the arsenal. Otherwise, we'll try the "3 mic drum technique" using the best mics in the mic locker.

~ Jonathan

The Scimitars

Oh yes...the set-up for drum recording can take more than 4 hours. Very time consuming. Which means - expensive. That's why my band's recordings are going to be done at home, as much as possible.

If you do end up using the fewer mic set-up, I think having the drummer excercise restraint while hitting the snare and the cymbals, then bashing the floor tom and the toms during fills, would help the problem with floor tom dropping out. I would even go ahead and dare to suggest to forget about the snare mic and use that mic for the floor tom - the snare is very loud, the rack toms would get picked up pretty well by the overheads (provided they're played loud enough). It's the floor tom that gets burried (similar to what happens to the bass drum). You might like the sound of the snare like that - just ambient. I think it sounds cool.

One more thing - these are my suggestions based on the many mistakes done on my old band's previous recordings, so please don't go and say "you talk so much about recordings but your work sounds like crap"... I'm not happy with most of the recordings, but I think I was able to understand what was done wrong. I'm not saying that I'll be able to implement all the points I outlined here, but I'm sure as hell gonna try.

Ran

The Scimitars

I use a two mic set-up,(SM-57/snare- MXL990/overhead), cuz I only have two inputs to deal with. Something kinda fun I've tried was sticking an extra, rather crappy Radio Shack mic in the tom, and sometimes the kick if I'm doing a more rock-style tune, then running it into my reverb tank, then into my Showman. Both mics pick up the sound so it really helps to get more tom into the mix. I use GarageBand and like to tack on some dynamic processor and a little overdrive too. It sorta tightens and enlivens things up a bit.
Oh ya, I'm not an engineer or drummer so...

>

We're getting ready to record our next CD. Gonna try recording a couple of tracks at home first to see if we can get a drum sound we like. We're thinking about trying the 1 LDC mic technique, 2 mics(LDC mic on the bass drum & one condenser overhead), 3 mics (LDC on bass drum, 2 overheads), and 4 mics (bass drum, snare, 2 overheads) .

I've used 3 and 4 mics, but not the one or 2. (Though we did record an OmOm comp track on Surferstar with one SM57...long story). Any suggestions for the 1 and 2 mic technique?

Thanks,
Mike

Canadian Surf

http://www.urbansurfkings.com/

We just finished a couple of sessions using 2 mics on the drums. Both were MXL condensors. The small one was used overhead, centred on the kit, and about 5 feet up. The LDC was placed 4 feet out front, 3 feet off the ground and angled at the bass drum. We're pretty happy with the results so far. The kit actually sounds like one intrument than an assemblage of different parts.

Mike

Canadian Surf

http://www.urbansurfkings.com/

Getting ready to work on some new projects. Wondering how people handle drum micing these days. Going over drummer's house with about 7 tracks to use on his kit. I've always found placement is one of the most important aspects of drum/live recordings.

Surfcat

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