Ringo
Joined: Feb 15, 2019
Posts: 46
USA
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Posted on Mar 03 2019 04:30 PM
Greetings,
I'm hoping to get some help here with a couple of questions about the '63 RI Outboard Reverb tank:
1) As most (or all) of you probably know, the official Fender Service Manual calls for a 4AB3C1C (vertical) tank, that is held vertically against the front, inside wall of the tank. However, does it necessarily HAVE to be a vertical mount? In other words, could a guy just use the comparable 4AB3C1B (horizontal) tank, and simply mount it flat to the floor, without any functional issues or loss of performance/tone (i.e., purported loss of 'drip', etc.)?
2) I've seen references on-line to various potential mods for this thing (I've done the cap one already), and I've experimented with various tube changes at-times, including 5751 for the 12AX7 at V1, CV4024 for the 12AT7 at V2, and 6K6 for the 6V6 power tube, but I really haven't noticed any 'serious' changes in overall performance or tone. Can someone possibly tell me what kinds of improvements I should be looking for with each of those changes?
Many thanks!
— "Heavy is good. Heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work, you can always hit them with it." - Boris the Blade
Last edited: Mar 03, 2019 16:38:50
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11077
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Mar 03 2019 04:42 PM
- I've used all sorts of different pans and it's never been an issue. Try mounting it the standard way and see if you have any issues.
EDIT I realize I didn't actually answer your question. Surfy Bear is a perfect example of pans being used horizontally to great success. So no, it shouldn't be a factor.
- It's subtle at best. Depends on how sensitive you are to the differences. Myself, with all the other devices impacting my tone, can't really tell too much difference from switching out the tubes. I do always use a 6k6 though.
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac'
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
Last edited: Mar 03, 2019 16:44:08
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Ringo
Joined: Feb 15, 2019
Posts: 46
USA
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Posted on Mar 03 2019 05:03 PM
DannySnyder wrote:
- I've used all sorts of different pans and it's never been an issue. Try mounting it the standard way and see if you have any issues.
EDIT I realize I didn't actually answer your question. Surfy Bear is a perfect example of pans being used horizontally to great success. So no, it shouldn't be a factor.
- It's subtle at best. Depends on how sensitive you are to the differences. Myself, with all the other devices impacting my tone, can't really tell too much difference from switching out the tubes. I do always use a 6k6 though.
Thanks Danny!
Yeah, the reason I've asked about the physical orientation of the pan itself is because I don't happen to have both types of pans available at the moment (4AB3C1B and 4AB3C1C), and also, because there's some language on-line including at Antique Electronic Supply and other vendors that the internal construction of them actually differs somewhat, depending on whether its a horizontal or vertical mount.
And to be clear, I just tried an older Accutronics horizontal 4AB3C1B pan directly on the floor and it sounded pretty awesome. So I guess I'm just curious about whether the OEM 4AB3C1C is likely to perform slightly better (i.e., better 'drip', etc.?), and whether I should invest the extra $35 or so (with shipping costs), for a 4AB3C1C pan, in order to return its original OEM specification. That's really the point of my question. But thanks again.
— "Heavy is good. Heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work, you can always hit them with it." - Boris the Blade
Last edited: Mar 03, 2019 17:05:39
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11077
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Mar 03 2019 05:55 PM
Ringo I've found that there's no consistency with specific types and brands of pans when it comes to drip. I don't believe manufacturers consider drip a desirable effect  What I did was stockpile lots of pans and used the best one. I prefer the old vintage Gibbs that came out of a lot of Hammonds.
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac'
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
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Ringo
Joined: Feb 15, 2019
Posts: 46
USA
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Posted on Mar 03 2019 06:26 PM
DannySnyder wrote:
. . . I prefer the old vintage Gibbs that came out of a lot of Hammonds.
I'll have to give those a try. I've got two of 'em sittin' right here that I bought off E-Bay cheap ($20 each) about 10-years ago. Don't know if they're any good or how I'd even determine that, and I'm not not sure they'd be compatible with this particular unit, but they came outta Hammond organs, just like you've said.
— "Heavy is good. Heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work, you can always hit them with it." - Boris the Blade
Last edited: Mar 03, 2019 18:27:23
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11077
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Mar 03 2019 06:51 PM
Check the resistance. I found the input to range between .75 - 2.Ω and output 150-200Ω when putting an ohmmeter across the terminals of the rca jack.
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac'
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
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Ringo
Joined: Feb 15, 2019
Posts: 46
USA
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Posted on Mar 03 2019 07:09 PM
DannySnyder wrote:
Check the resistance. I found the input to range between .75 - 2.Ω and output 150-200Ω when putting an ohmmeter across the terminals of the rca jack.
Danny,
My apologies, but I'm not sure that I follow you here?
Are you saying that those are the measured resistance values of the older Accutronics (Hammond) pans that you have there? If so, are they compatible with your own '63 RI Outboard tank? Or are you using something else?
Thanks again.
— "Heavy is good. Heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work, you can always hit them with it." - Boris the Blade
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11077
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Mar 03 2019 08:23 PM
Those are the resistance measurements for all pans compatible with a 6G15 fender outboard reverb type circuit. Before buying I ask sellers to check those readings for me.
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac'
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
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Ariel
Joined: Aug 29, 2009
Posts: 1556
Israel
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Posted on Mar 04 2019 04:11 AM
Just addressing the horizontal/vertical issue:
The pans should sound the same, either way.
Should be mounted according to their correct specification, to compensate for the spring's own weight. (from Accutronics' website) -
the weight of the springs displaces the magnets along the air gap, not toward the lamination. The closer the magnet is to the lamination, the less of a shock can be given to the unit before the magnet will bottom on the laminations.
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Ringo
Joined: Feb 15, 2019
Posts: 46
USA
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Posted on Mar 04 2019 10:54 AM
Thanks guys.
Yes, this horizontal/vertical thing remains my chief concern, and unless I'm mistaken, the pans installed on Hammond organs were all 'horizontal or floor-mounted, which regardless of whether they work or not, effectively disqualifies them if I want to stick with OEM specifications.
Anyway, I've gone ahead and ordered an Accutronics 4AB3C1C pan, and it'll probably be 'junk' relative to the older ones, but we'll see how the two compare.
And I'm still hoping to get some opinions here on the second question that I had originally posed, which was what changes jn performance or sound I might expect with changes in tube type(s).
Thanks again to all!
— "Heavy is good. Heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work, you can always hit them with it." - Boris the Blade
Last edited: Mar 04, 2019 10:55:57
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