Duesenberg Les Trem II???

CaptainSensible

Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 650
Leesburg, VA
United States

Posted on Nov 06 2017 03:00 PM

Anybody have experience using one of these Duesenberg Les Trem II vibrato arms? Was thinking of putting one on my Agile AS-820 (basically an ES-335 clone) rather than spending even more on a Bigsby.

—

Sean

Last edited: Nov 06, 2017 15:03:10

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Chippertheripper

Joined: Mar 11, 2011
Posts: 819
Semass
1 Security Pin

Posted on Nov 06 2017 07:13 PM

I played one on a 339 for a second. It wiggles.
I’d say go for it. See if you can find a used one on reverb or someplace.

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Redfeather

Joined: Jul 30, 2016
Posts: 896
3 Download Pins

Posted on Nov 06 2017 08:01 PM

I have one on my Vantage VP-790 and I love it! I'd definitely recommend it. I can almost get away with using the stock brass saddles on my bridge since they wiggle a bit but deeper bends do throw some strings out of tune so I think it should be paired with a roller bridge.

The vibrato works very well, feels nice and stable, and is totally reversible in minutes. Pretty sweet deal.

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Surfadelphia

Joined: Sep 04, 2017
Posts: 437

Posted on Nov 06 2017 09:29 PM

Looks like a great (easy to install, easy to unistall) alternative to a Bigsby for a stop tail guitar. I saw a post someplace where a cut down Strat trem arm was swapped for the stock arm and looked better and was said to function better.

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CaptainSensible

Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 650
Leesburg, VA
United States

Posted on Nov 06 2017 09:34 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I think I will go the Les Trem route. But first I'm swapping out the hum buckets that came with the guitar for a GFS Mean 90 in the neck and a GFS Surf 90 in the bridge. Hoping to get this guitar feeling and sounding right for some surfabilly.

—

Sean

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LeeVanCleef

Joined: Oct 05, 2011
Posts: 744
France
12 Map Pins

Posted on Nov 07 2017 02:55 PM

I installed one on my Aria TA-50 (ES-335 copy) a couple of weeks ago and I couldn't be happier with it. It feels more or less like a Bigsby, only a little less stiff, which is a good thing IMO. Installing mine took less than five minutes (tuning included) as it requires no modification.

Word of warning though: stock units come with two sets of specific mounting bolts (one set for metric thread and one for imperial). If you get one secondhand make sure both sets of bolts are included as you can't use regular stoptail ones with it.

—

Old punks never die... They just become surf rockers.

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stratdancer

Joined: Dec 11, 2013
Posts: 2537
Akron, Ohio
United States

Posted on Nov 07 2017 06:16 PM

Id suggest a roller bridge. Stew Mac has them cheap. Eliminates friction on the saddles and will stay in tune better. How much are these going for? I'd like one on my V.

—

The Kahuna Kings

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kahuna-Kings/459752090818447

https://thekahunakings.bandcamp.com/releases

Last edited: Nov 07, 2017 18:17:54

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JakeDobner

Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
5 News Pins

Posted on Nov 07 2017 10:27 PM

Redfeather wrote:

I can almost get away with using the stock brass saddles on my bridge since they wiggle a bit but deeper bends do throw some strings out of tune so I think it should be paired with a roller bridge.

Think of all of the guitars and guitarists that have used a guitar with a vibrato without a roller bridge. Roller bridges do nothing but sound terrible(there isn't enough area of contact to provide all of the strings vibration to head into the body). Most roller bridges don't even roll because the tension is too great to allowing the bearing to rotate. I've had roller bridges before, they have all had to go and couldn't go quick enough.

You might just needs your bridge or nut saddles lubricated or your nut properly adjusted. Or, your saddles are soft and dug into.

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Gilette

Joined: May 04, 2014
Posts: 734
Montserrat

Posted on Nov 08 2017 02:38 AM

I've had a real problem with an Adjust-o-Matic (Tune-o-Matic) bridge in combination with the trem on my J. Mascis Jazzmaster. It kept rattling and ticking and I couldn't get it to work after 3 set-ups. The roller bridge I got really made a difference. It's smooth as butter and a pleasure to play muted. It's true that the rollers don't roll with every single movement of the trem, but the radius of the bend that the string has to make is bigger than on the sharp saddles of a Tune-o-Matic. So the force of the moving string has two way's to go on a roller bridge, either sliding or rolling. Both ways being a lot smoother than with the old Tune-o-Matic bridge.

If you use heavier gauge strings on a TOM bridge and give it a dive on the trem sometimes the windings of the strings don't pop back into the original position, leaving you with a guitar out of tune. The lower friction of a roller bridge will never allow this to happen.

Because of the larger radius of the rollers compared to the saddles on a TOM bridge, the actual coupling area of the string touching the roller is larger. If I would use Jake's argument the sustain and harmonic response would have to improve. But it doesn't. And I personally think this is due to the fact that the acoustical properties of a roller bridge aren't that different after all.

I really can't hear if a guitar has a roller bridge or not, and I haven't found any difference in the sustain or harmonic response of my guitars. For me, it just took away the irritation of playing a guitar with a bridge that doesn't agree with the use of the tremolo.

Last edited: Nov 08, 2017 02:41:46

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stratdancer

Joined: Dec 11, 2013
Posts: 2537
Akron, Ohio
United States

Posted on Nov 08 2017 04:52 AM

What he said ^. I had a vibrola with a tune-o-matic and it would never stay in tune for the reasons mentioned but after changing to a roller bridge I could dive bomb like it was a floyd rose.

—

The Kahuna Kings

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kahuna-Kings/459752090818447

https://thekahunakings.bandcamp.com/releases

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LeeVanCleef

Joined: Oct 05, 2011
Posts: 744
France
12 Map Pins

Posted on Nov 08 2017 03:28 PM

Gilette wrote:

I really can't hear if a guitar has a roller bridge or not, and I haven't found any difference in the sustain or harmonic response of my guitars. For me, it just took away the irritation of playing a guitar with a bridge that doesn't agree with the use of the tremolo.

Couldn't agree more. The Tune-O-Matc + trem combo caused frequent tuning issues on both of my guitars that were equipped with it. On my Eko Kadett '67 reissue the TOM actually tried to rock with each dip of the Bigsby handle because of the steep break angle of the strings. Substituting a roller bridge has solved these problems in both cases and there's no difference in tone -- none that I can discern anyway.

—

Old punks never die... They just become surf rockers.

Top

Redfeather

Joined: Jul 30, 2016
Posts: 896
3 Download Pins

Posted on Nov 08 2017 06:35 PM

Jake, that's a bold and incorrect statement! The Kahler roller saddles I put on my Mustang most definitely roll. It's as if their connection to the string is a geared interface in the positive way they follow the movement of the strings.

So my experience is that 100% of the roller bridges I've had work perfectly in their intended function. That's a set of 1 but it's enough to convince me of the validity of the concept of a roller bridge.

Saddles that wiggle, bridges that wobble, smearing astroglide on your guitar--all these I find silly approaches to a problem that I have found easily solved by the clever application of one of Man's earliest inventions. If wheel saddles changed the tone of my Mustang, I can't hear it and if I could I probably wouldn't care, as staying in tune trumps (sorry to use that word) subtleties of tone for me any day.

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CaptainSensible

Joined: Nov 08, 2006
Posts: 650
Leesburg, VA
United States

Posted on Nov 09 2017 01:19 PM

Got my new pickups on my Agile. Now I'm really feeling the desire to add one of these Les Trems. Hoping that chqngimg the pups and adding the vibrato arm will really change this guitar into a surfabilly machine.

—

Sean

Top

CaptainSensible Joined: Nov 08, 2006 Posts: 650 Leesburg, VA	Posted on Nov 06 2017 03:00 PM Anybody have experience using one of these Duesenberg Les Trem II vibrato arms? Was thinking of putting one on my Agile AS-820 (basically an ES-335 clone) rather than spending even more on a Bigsby. — Sean Last edited: Nov 06, 2017 15:03:10 Top
Chippertheripper Joined: Mar 11, 2011 Posts: 819 Semass	Posted on Nov 06 2017 07:13 PM I played one on a 339 for a second. It wiggles. I’d say go for it. See if you can find a used one on reverb or someplace. Top
Redfeather Joined: Jul 30, 2016 Posts: 896	Posted on Nov 06 2017 08:01 PM I have one on my Vantage VP-790 and I love it! I'd definitely recommend it. I can almost get away with using the stock brass saddles on my bridge since they wiggle a bit but deeper bends do throw some strings out of tune so I think it should be paired with a roller bridge. The vibrato works very well, feels nice and stable, and is totally reversible in minutes. Pretty sweet deal. Top
Surfadelphia Joined: Sep 04, 2017 Posts: 437	Posted on Nov 06 2017 09:29 PM Looks like a great (easy to install, easy to unistall) alternative to a Bigsby for a stop tail guitar. I saw a post someplace where a cut down Strat trem arm was swapped for the stock arm and looked better and was said to function better. Top
CaptainSensible Joined: Nov 08, 2006 Posts: 650 Leesburg, VA	Posted on Nov 06 2017 09:34 PM Thanks for the feedback. I think I will go the Les Trem route. But first I'm swapping out the hum buckets that came with the guitar for a GFS Mean 90 in the neck and a GFS Surf 90 in the bridge. Hoping to get this guitar feeling and sounding right for some surfabilly. — Sean Top
LeeVanCleef Joined: Oct 05, 2011 Posts: 744 France	Posted on Nov 07 2017 02:55 PM I installed one on my Aria TA-50 (ES-335 copy) a couple of weeks ago and I couldn't be happier with it. It feels more or less like a Bigsby, only a little less stiff, which is a good thing IMO. Installing mine took less than five minutes (tuning included) as it requires no modification. Word of warning though: stock units come with two sets of specific mounting bolts (one set for metric thread and one for imperial). If you get one secondhand make sure both sets of bolts are included as you can't use regular stoptail ones with it. — Old punks never die... They just become surf rockers. Top
stratdancer Joined: Dec 11, 2013 Posts: 2537 Akron, Ohio	Posted on Nov 07 2017 06:16 PM Id suggest a roller bridge. Stew Mac has them cheap. Eliminates friction on the saddles and will stay in tune better. How much are these going for? I'd like one on my V. — The Kahuna Kings https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kahuna-Kings/459752090818447 https://thekahunakings.bandcamp.com/releases Last edited: Nov 07, 2017 18:17:54 Top
JakeDobner Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 12159 Seattle	Posted on Nov 07 2017 10:27 PM Redfeather wrote: I can almost get away with using the stock brass saddles on my bridge since they wiggle a bit but deeper bends do throw some strings out of tune so I think it should be paired with a roller bridge. Think of all of the guitars and guitarists that have used a guitar with a vibrato without a roller bridge. Roller bridges do nothing but sound terrible(there isn't enough area of contact to provide all of the strings vibration to head into the body). Most roller bridges don't even roll because the tension is too great to allowing the bearing to rotate. I've had roller bridges before, they have all had to go and couldn't go quick enough. You might just needs your bridge or nut saddles lubricated or your nut properly adjusted. Or, your saddles are soft and dug into. Top
Gilette Joined: May 04, 2014 Posts: 734	Posted on Nov 08 2017 02:38 AM I've had a real problem with an Adjust-o-Matic (Tune-o-Matic) bridge in combination with the trem on my J. Mascis Jazzmaster. It kept rattling and ticking and I couldn't get it to work after 3 set-ups. The roller bridge I got really made a difference. It's smooth as butter and a pleasure to play muted. It's true that the rollers don't roll with every single movement of the trem, but the radius of the bend that the string has to make is bigger than on the sharp saddles of a Tune-o-Matic. So the force of the moving string has two way's to go on a roller bridge, either sliding or rolling. Both ways being a lot smoother than with the old Tune-o-Matic bridge. If you use heavier gauge strings on a TOM bridge and give it a dive on the trem sometimes the windings of the strings don't pop back into the original position, leaving you with a guitar out of tune. The lower friction of a roller bridge will never allow this to happen. Because of the larger radius of the rollers compared to the saddles on a TOM bridge, the actual coupling area of the string touching the roller is larger. If I would use Jake's argument the sustain and harmonic response would have to improve. But it doesn't. And I personally think this is due to the fact that the acoustical properties of a roller bridge aren't that different after all. I really can't hear if a guitar has a roller bridge or not, and I haven't found any difference in the sustain or harmonic response of my guitars. For me, it just took away the irritation of playing a guitar with a bridge that doesn't agree with the use of the tremolo. Last edited: Nov 08, 2017 02:41:46 Top
stratdancer Joined: Dec 11, 2013 Posts: 2537 Akron, Ohio	Posted on Nov 08 2017 04:52 AM What he said ^. I had a vibrola with a tune-o-matic and it would never stay in tune for the reasons mentioned but after changing to a roller bridge I could dive bomb like it was a floyd rose. — The Kahuna Kings https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Kahuna-Kings/459752090818447 https://thekahunakings.bandcamp.com/releases Top
LeeVanCleef Joined: Oct 05, 2011 Posts: 744 France	Posted on Nov 08 2017 03:28 PM Gilette wrote: I really can't hear if a guitar has a roller bridge or not, and I haven't found any difference in the sustain or harmonic response of my guitars. For me, it just took away the irritation of playing a guitar with a bridge that doesn't agree with the use of the tremolo. Couldn't agree more. The Tune-O-Matc + trem combo caused frequent tuning issues on both of my guitars that were equipped with it. On my Eko Kadett '67 reissue the TOM actually tried to rock with each dip of the Bigsby handle because of the steep break angle of the strings. Substituting a roller bridge has solved these problems in both cases and there's no difference in tone -- none that I can discern anyway. — Old punks never die... They just become surf rockers. Top
Redfeather Joined: Jul 30, 2016 Posts: 896	Posted on Nov 08 2017 06:35 PM Jake, that's a bold and incorrect statement! The Kahler roller saddles I put on my Mustang most definitely roll. It's as if their connection to the string is a geared interface in the positive way they follow the movement of the strings. So my experience is that 100% of the roller bridges I've had work perfectly in their intended function. That's a set of 1 but it's enough to convince me of the validity of the concept of a roller bridge. Saddles that wiggle, bridges that wobble, smearing astroglide on your guitar--all these I find silly approaches to a problem that I have found easily solved by the clever application of one of Man's earliest inventions. If wheel saddles changed the tone of my Mustang, I can't hear it and if I could I probably wouldn't care, as staying in tune trumps (sorry to use that word) subtleties of tone for me any day. Top
CaptainSensible Joined: Nov 08, 2006 Posts: 650 Leesburg, VA	Posted on Nov 09 2017 01:19 PM Got my new pickups on my Agile. Now I'm really feeling the desire to add one of these Les Trems. Hoping that chqngimg the pups and adding the vibrato arm will really change this guitar into a surfabilly machine. — Sean Top

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Duesenberg Les Trem II???