klob
Joined: Apr 30, 2009
Posts: 344
Austin, TX
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Posted on Feb 16 2016 06:07 PM
rottenman wrote:
I have to assume "punk" as a genre has as many nuanced sub-genres and spin-offs as "surf" does.
At least! Probably hundreds more, honestly.
Like others have said, youthful, restless energy is at the core of both surf and punk. Both are very intentionally open to players of all skill levels (though some genres of punk openly devalue advanced techniques), and I think both have a very strong drive (for lack of a better word) to incorporate other genres and expand into cultures beyond their origins. They're a natural fit, in my view.
My band uses distortion and fast tempos quite frequently, but I think we're clearly in some part of the "surf" genre-tree. Likewise, most of our songs have more going on musically than the Ramones or Agent Orange, but it would be equally hard to say we're not related to punk, it's a huge part of my musical vocabulary and that of everybody who's ever played in the band. "Surf-punk" is a quick way to describe us, though I often say "surf-psych" or "surf-garage" these days because I see more overlap between us and those retro scenes than the mohawked street punks a lot of people think of when they hear "punk" at this point.
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klob
Joined: Apr 30, 2009
Posts: 344
Austin, TX
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Posted on Feb 16 2016 06:17 PM
DreadInBabylon wrote:
Meterman wrote:
I always felt Punk was about taking what society no longer sees as worthwhile and showing that life can thrives anywhere even in the cracks of the sidewalk.
Great point, yes!
Punk is not an aesthetic, or a period in pop culture. I mean of course it is, but like others said before, plenty of examples before 1976 that carry the same message.
Punk is ugliness, a violent expression of misfits who can't play but still have something to say, in a short, impactful way.
It's a blinding peek out to anarchy. Leaves you uncomfortable and shaky.
As I perceive it, so very contrary to surf music, which is at most nice, romantic, arranged, well played and doesn't necessarily go to emotional extremes, rather dig in the nuances.
Fast surf is fast, loud surf is loud. For it to be "punk" surf in my definition, it would need to be real sloppy too.
I don't really disagree with this, but the bolded part overlooks one of the appeals of the initial surf wave, the simple, not-necessarily-all-playing-together energy of some of the tunes, like "Wild Weekend" by The Rockin' Rebels, for example. And there are very few more euphoric OR aggressive guitar players that I can think of than Dick Dale, as far as emotional extremes go. Extreme moods and a tolerance for amateurs are in the DNA of surf, I think.
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ArabSpringReverb
Joined: Jul 13, 2012
Posts: 490
San Diego CA
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Posted on Feb 16 2016 07:22 PM
The very first 'hardcore' punk band I saw back in 81 or so was JFA from Phoenix and they did a few straight up surf songs like Baja and Pipeline mixed in with their super thrash . The guitarist Don used a big old Fender head and cab . And it worked well ,the surf tempered the ultra fast tempos of their skate thrash and it was a nice break from the wall of sound .
But generally I dont care for distorted surf sounds, I prefer the 'clean' old school surf stuff .. the 'Surf Punks ' of course were neither ...more like new wave beach music.
I think the initial punk explosion of the late 70s had a lot of people looking back at simpler rock n roll such as surf ,rock a billy etc . I know I really got into Link Wray and old surf at the time but for some reason mixing the distorto wall of sound that I love so much with the old music just rarely worked for me.While I like rocka billy ,I cant get into psychobilly . Its like cooking .....a little spice added in is nice ,too much is way too much. Not really sure how to define it but I know it when I hear it.
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ArabSpringReverb
Joined: Jul 13, 2012
Posts: 490
San Diego CA
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Posted on Feb 16 2016 07:26 PM
And I agree with whoever said Agent Orange = punk band with a smattering of surf thrown in ...really not surf punk.
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spskins
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3786
tn
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Posted on Feb 16 2016 07:32 PM
killbabykill34 wrote:
I would love to know more as well. But I have my doubts as to it existing purely as a kiss off to those that constantly ask the question. There was too much effort put into it. But despite all that effort, it really comes across as a piss poor surf album. Even worse, it lacked what people were asking for any way. It wasn't his echoplex heavy DK tone transferred to surf. It was just mediocre surf.
Not a kiss off from my own experience. In the mid-late 90s we played a couple of shows with a kind of loungey band called Frenchy in SF and around the Bay Area. The guitarist was East Bay Ray, who is a hilarious great guy, IMHO. He talked about Jumbo Shrimp and loved talking about surf music with us. When we played the Fillmore with The Bomboras a year later, both Ray and Jello Biafra showed up in our backstage before the show. It was a little tense, since they were in the midst of a lawsuit, and I think Jello came more for The Bomboras and Ray came to see us, but free backstage beer brought them together into the same room!
rottenman wrote:
killbabykill34 wrote:
I still am not ashamed to say publically that I love that surf riff in the Ricky Martin song.
And I have never been able to find any history on the Jumbo Shrimp album.
bummer... I was hoping you'd have some more insight on Jumbo Shrimp. That little bit I heard about it was purely speculative.
Ricky Martin is punk
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Brian
Joined: Feb 25, 2006
Posts: 19334
Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Posted on Feb 16 2016 09:05 PM
Wow, great story Ted!
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rottenman
Joined: Jan 31, 2015
Posts: 115
Austin, TX
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Posted on Feb 16 2016 09:52 PM
Great story indeed!
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arny
Joined: Aug 22, 2010
Posts: 614
Netherlands, Europe
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Posted on Feb 17 2016 02:51 AM
Just my (ex-punk) two cents:
How many traditional surfbands of the sixties became influenced by the British Beat Boom and started a new sound, nowadays called garagepunk? Which influenced a lot of punkbands of the late 70's and 80's untill now? As a young kid, that liked punk and hardcore, I was interested where my favorite music came from. So I got into garagepunk (Sonics, Stooges, etc), thru Johnny Thunders I learned to play Pipeline and DK & Agent Orange brought me to Dick Dale. At the same time I discovered Link Wray and that led to my biggest addiction; collecting everything Link ever did.
I love twangy, drippy clean guitarsounds, but it is not my style. I like it dirty, fuzzy. Sorry if I offend 'purist' with my guitar sound and love of dirt pedals. But hey, it's only music, and at least I don't 'sing' anymore 
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Syndicateofsurf
Joined: Oct 08, 2014
Posts: 1073
Northern Ohio
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Posted on Feb 17 2016 06:18 AM
arny wrote:
at least I don't 'sing' anymore
Now that's a good point arny- me neither thank the lesser lights of heaven!
— Da Vinci Flinglestein,
The quest for the Tone, the tone of the Quest
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killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
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Posted on Feb 17 2016 06:56 AM
Awesome story, Ted. Jello and East Bay Ray are two of the only early influences that I haven't had the pleasure of meeting in some capacity. And I intend on that remedying that situation.
spskins wrote:
killbabykill34 wrote:
I would love to know more as well. But I have my doubts as to it existing purely as a kiss off to those that constantly ask the question. There was too much effort put into it. But despite all that effort, it really comes across as a piss poor surf album. Even worse, it lacked what people were asking for any way. It wasn't his echoplex heavy DK tone transferred to surf. It was just mediocre surf.
Not a kiss off from my own experience. In the mid-late 90s we played a couple of shows with a kind of loungey band called Frenchy in SF and around the Bay Area. The guitarist was East Bay Ray, who is a hilarious great guy, IMHO. He talked about Jumbo Shrimp and loved talking about surf music with us. When we played the Fillmore with The Bomboras a year later, both Ray and Jello Biafra showed up in our backstage before the show. It was a little tense, since they were in the midst of a lawsuit, and I think Jello came more for The Bomboras and Ray came to see us, but free backstage beer brought them together into the same room!
rottenman wrote:
killbabykill34 wrote:
I still am not ashamed to say publically that I love that surf riff in the Ricky Martin song.
And I have never been able to find any history on the Jumbo Shrimp album.
bummer... I was hoping you'd have some more insight on Jumbo Shrimp. That little bit I heard about it was purely speculative.
Ricky Martin is punk
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killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
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Posted on Feb 17 2016 06:59 AM
ArabSpringReverb wrote:
And I agree with whoever said Agent Orange = punk band with a smattering of surf thrown in ...really not surf punk.
I stand by my statement. But I also feel my post might have sounded a bit too critical. That first Agent Orange album is absolutely fantastic, and one of those very rare punk albums that holds up after three and a half decades.
Regarding my comments about them riding that one album to this day...well...I suppose there is no way to say that without being harsh. But it is true. In 36 years the "band" has recorded only three albums, two EP's, and a single. Beyond that, they have rerecorded their "best of songs" a few times and repackaged them. The truth of the matter is that they only ever did one album and EP that held up in any way. So they are a nostalgia act at this point. And I suppose there is no shame in that.
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11067
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Feb 17 2016 07:19 AM
I had the pleasure of hanging with EBR this past Christmas and having an extended conversation with him. At least in this point of his life, he had no disparaging words about surf music, and when he discussed Jumbo Shrimp he seemed proud of it. I did see Jumbo Shrimp back in the day, but they were unremarkable and barely remember them, at the time I was unaware of who was in the band.
When I was between guitarists in the Tmen the idea was floated to me by someone close to him to ask Ray if he would join. As much as I love his work with the DK's, I thought it wouldn't be a good match with what we do, plus the Tmen would instantly be known as EBR's new surf band.
I think at this point, he's making decent dough with the DK's again and that's probably enough for him.
As for his initially being influenced by surf, I agree with the previous statement that it's more likely he's influenced modern surf guitarists far more (Me!) than the other way around.
I haven't met Jello yet, but he's been very active dj'ing in venues we're at and it's only a matter of time.
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac'
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
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psychonaut
Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 1304
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Posted on Feb 17 2016 08:04 AM
Back in the mid 80's I played a few gigs with the DK's. One time I asked Ray about surf music, and he said he never even heard Dick Dale until after the DK's were formed and people called them "surf music". He also told me that the octave guitar riffs in 'Holidays in Cambodia" were inspired by "3rd Stone from the Sun" by Hendrix. Now that's irony for you
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Last edited: Feb 17, 2016 08:06:28
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killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
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Posted on Feb 17 2016 09:11 AM
It would take Ray looking me in the eye and denying everything he has ever said about his lack of surf influence to convince me otherwise. But none of that negates the reality that his guitar work has had a very lasting influence on the generations of surf guitarists after DK. And even that influence is indirect and more due to the reality that so many of us transitioned from young punk/indi musicians to adult surf players.
All things considered, it is pretty neat how likely it is that peoples interpretation of his playing likely led Ray to discover surf guitar proper.
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Chippertheripper
Joined: Mar 11, 2011
Posts: 819
Semass
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Posted on Feb 20 2016 07:43 AM
I prefer surf junk.
That kind of music with just enough reverb that you think it's surf, enough agro that it could pass for punk, and some quirks in their to keep you on your toes.
Lots of traditional surfy stuff just doesn't grab me. It's too mathematic.
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