Fady
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 2274
North Carolina
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Posted on Jan 15 2016 03:11 PM
Let me start by saying I'm unsure if what I'm hearing is a defect or not.
I do know that by design, the pedal will go into self-oscialtion without any guitar signal (that's clearly stated in the manual). To me, that suggests there would have to be some inherent 'noise' in the pedal. What I'm not sure about - if the conditions I'm getting white noise is normal or not.
My question for Bell Epoch owners:
If you roll all the knobs to zero/off except MIX, when you approach about 10 or 11 O'clock and above, do you get a noticeable and arguably significant amount of white noise considering it's digital?
For more context on what I've tried to isolate/understand/test:
I initially found the noise experimenting with what I think you'd find as typical/common/average settings and getting a feel for Record Level vs. Mix level settings, and checking the unique feature of 100% wet Mix. I then took steps to eliminate variables and found this can be isolated to just the Mix knob (and then further effected as you roll up the others).
I've found that True By-Pass vs. Buffered doesn't matter. If you're in buffered mode, you can test with the pedal 'on' or not. If you're in true bypass mode, the effect has to be on to test.
I've also tried 'known good' cables between guitar and pedal and pedal and amp, making those the only items in the chain with no change to the noise.
I have tried 3 different power supplies (one spot, several ports & power connects/chords on a Voodoo Labs supply, and a Fulltone regulated adapter) with no change to the noise.
I have also tried amp & pedal plugged into the same electrical outlet and in different outlets with no change to the noise.
Lastly for the moment, I could not have any greater appreciation for the fact that "discernible" or "a lot" or whatever other qualifier is purely subjective and based on our own experiences and references (snowflake phenomenon)! That said, what even prompted me to post this comes from a bench mark comparison comes from another Catalinbread digital/DSP based delay - the Echorec. Swapping in the Echorec in all the conditions described above and doing the exact same tests... pretty darn quiet - much, much quieter than the Belle Epoch. Unscientifically, not 100% noiseless, but I'd say easily +80% reduction in the noise floor by comparison. I do know its pre-amp is different, and probably a whole lot of other factors in the circuit, so that's where I'm hoping to get a lil help from other Bell Epoch users to check out the same settings and share comments.
Could be this is totally normal and I just never noticed it before. Or it could be the rare case of needing to take advantage of Catalinbreads AWESOME 7 year warranty and have 'em check it out.
Thanks in advance for your help!
— Fady
El Mirage @ ReverbNation
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4537
Wisconsin
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Posted on Jan 15 2016 10:57 PM
Onslow_Beach wrote:
Let me start by saying I'm unsure if what I'm hearing is a defect or not.
I do know that by design, the pedal will go into self-oscialtion without any guitar signal (that's clearly stated in the manual).
Just curious but by "without any guitar signal" does that mean nothing connected to the input, or plugged in but volume just at zero?
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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evL
Joined: Oct 13, 2015
Posts: 85
Crab Key
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 04:20 AM
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Last edited: Mar 11, 2016 10:15:26
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Fady
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 2274
North Carolina
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 09:55 AM
Badger wrote:
Onslow_Beach wrote:
Let me start by saying I'm unsure if what I'm hearing is a defect or not.
I do know that by design, the pedal will go into self-oscialtion without any guitar signal (that's clearly stated in the manual).
Just curious but by "without any guitar signal" does that mean nothing connected to the input, or plugged in but volume just at zero?
The manual has a couple of references on this but aren't completely clear on the distinction.
Frist, in the section where they talk about the unique features of the EP-3 that they pay great attention to:
Catalinbread Belle Epoch manual writes:
3.) Self-oscillation! The Echoplex was more than just a delay box, it was an instrument unto itself. Almost all the famous Echoplex players used the delay slider and self-oscillating repeats as part of their musical vocabulary. In fact, you could play the Echoplex without even plugging in a guitar, just by turning the Echo Sustain up until it self-oscillated and then play it by manipulating the “Echo Delay” slider. This is where many other attempts at a “tape echo pedal” fall short. Not only does the unit not self-oscillate, but turning the delay time knob results in.... nothing. The sound stops till you park the delay time control. No space ships?! Fail!"
And then in the section describing the things they've specifically built in the Belle Epoch and talking about the Echo Sustain knob:
Catalinbread Belle Epoch manual writes:
"The Belle Epoch will generate self-oscillation tones by itself, without any guitar signal present at the input, when the knob is turned from around 2:00 on up. The Echoplex did this too and this was an important attribute for us to dial in!"
So in reference to a real Echoplex EP-3, they say 'nothing even connected', but in reference to the Belle Epoch it is less clear.
Never the less, I just checked mine out with nothing connected to the input jack (just amp turned on, pedal direct to the amp) and can send it into self oscillation. And I still get the white noise as originally described.
Then again, I'm not entirely sure mine is fit to spec at the moment, so my finding could be an anomaly...
— Fady
El Mirage @ ReverbNation
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Fady
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 2274
North Carolina
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 09:57 AM
evL wrote:
With all the knobs rolled off, no matter where I turn the Mix to, I hear no noise with mine. With guitar plugged in, volume all the way up, amp volume all the way up as well. Hosa cables, One Spot power.
With everything at 12' o-clock, no noise either.
We'll have to hear from others...
Thanks for checking yours out and posting your findings, evL! Really appreciate it! Sounds like there could in fact be something not quite right with mine.
Any one else able to help with the simple test?
— Fady
El Mirage @ ReverbNation
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4537
Wisconsin
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 10:33 AM
Onslow_Beach wrote:
evL wrote:
With all the knobs rolled off, no matter where I turn the Mix to, I hear no noise with mine. With guitar plugged in, volume all the way up, amp volume all the way up as well. Hosa cables, One Spot power.
With everything at 12' o-clock, no noise either.
We'll have to hear from others...
Thanks for checking yours out and posting your findings, evL! Really appreciate it! Sounds like there could in fact be something not quite right with mine.
Any one else able to help with the simple test?
Definitely need to hear from others. Given what you posted from the manual almost makes you wonder whose unit is "malfunctioning?" (Just interested from a x-shooting perspective.) I've seen is some pedals get really finicky & start getting noisy when the voltage drops below a certain point, but you've tried several different sources which begs the questions:
Is yours doing what Belle says is normal, or is evL's "theoretically" not to Belle's spec? (as you say, need more samples) Is it possible that there is something wrong in yours such that, no matter the stable input voltage, it's not making proper use of it internally? A warranty question to them wouldn't be out of order imo.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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Fady
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 2274
North Carolina
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 10:52 AM
Thanks, Wes!
The one distinction I'd make, mine introduces the white noise by adjusting the Mix knob, which seems problematic. The self-oscillation is intended to happen by dialing up the Echo Sustain knob past 2:00, which I don't think evL had specifically commented on.
Two additional pieces of info:
Realizing I neglected to mention I also have a Tripp Lite Voltage Regulator and Power Conditioner (LS606M) that by all accounts appears to be in fine working order. I've got the amp and pedal plugged into the LS606M. With or without the LS606M... doesn't seem to matter regarding the white noise introduced by the Mix knob on the Belle Epoch.
Also, I just took the whole setup into another room in the house, away from computers, powered speakers, external hard-drive (i.e. prime sources of Electromagnetic Interference). There was some improvement, albeit pretty minimal.
I would still love to hear anyone else who can add to the sample set here, and probably will do as you've suggested, Wes, no harm going ahead and dropping a note to C'bread too.
— Fady
El Mirage @ ReverbNation
Last edited: Jan 16, 2016 10:53:50
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evL
Joined: Oct 13, 2015
Posts: 85
Crab Key
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 11:18 AM
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Last edited: Mar 11, 2016 10:19:54
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4537
Wisconsin
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 02:12 PM
Onslow_Beach wrote:
Thanks, Wes!
Yeah, with evL's reply seems like you've got something else going on. Good you eliminated chance of notable RF issues.
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.
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(not like someone I know who sat down to noodle on the edge of a bed whose sheets were having the chill taken off by someone else having turned on the electric blanket, and said... )
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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Fady
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 2274
North Carolina
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 02:40 PM
evL wrote:
With an instrument plugged in or not, yes mine will self-oscillate once the echo-sustain knob gets to, or goes past 2' o-clock like it should.
 Thanks evL!!
— Fady
El Mirage @ ReverbNation
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Fady
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 2274
North Carolina
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 02:42 PM
Badger wrote:
(not like someone I know who sat down to noodle on the edge of a bed whose sheets were having the chill taken off by someone else having turned on the electric blanket, and said... )
Whoah! Ordinarily wouldn't have even crossed my mind, but I guess that'd be lil interference now wouldn't it!
— Fady
El Mirage @ ReverbNation
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Badger
Joined: Nov 16, 2013
Posts: 4537
Wisconsin
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Posted on Jan 16 2016 04:01 PM
Onslow_Beach wrote:
Whoah! Ordinarily wouldn't have even crossed my mind, but I guess that'd be lil interference now wouldn't it!
 yeah I'd have probably gone down a few paths if she hadn't done it once before when I was on the radio one night and my noise floor suddenly jumped up about +40dB. I get her back by making the Christmas lights on the tree blink on and off, suspiciously resembling Morse code.
— Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel
DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.
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Fady
Joined: Mar 07, 2010
Posts: 2274
North Carolina
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Posted on Jan 17 2016 07:52 AM
Any other Belle Epoch owners out there able to take a few minutes to test this scenario and share results?
If you roll all the knobs to zero/off except MIX, when you approach about 10 or 11 O'clock and above, do you get a noticeable and arguably significant amount of white noise considering it's digital?
Thanks!
— Fady
El Mirage @ ReverbNation
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