The Challengers of their debut "Surf Beat" were a VERY different band than the Challengers of their fourth and fifth albums ("K-39" and "Go Sidewalk Surfing"). The early band was very generic, IMHO, and just did covers of other people's hits without adding anything special to them. By the time they got Art Fisher on lead guitar and in particular Phil Pruden on sax (my favorite first wave sax player, so incredibly good, love his signature sound!) and Hal Blaine on drums (at least on the recorded stuff, where he had a highly distinctive style), and Randy Nauert had learned to play bass, I think this was a very hot band! Not raw in the slightest, very smooth, little reverb, but energetic and fairly creative. They were the band that recorded the first versions of many Paul Johnson classics, and even when they did other people's hits, they gave them a signature sound. I'm a big fan of those two albums, "K-39" and "Go Sidewalk Surfing", I think they're both simply excellent! But I can understand why none of the Challengers songs made people's top 10 lists - as good as the band was, there were many other great bands that wrote and performed much more iconic songs.

(I do wonder how different the results would have been on those top 101 lists is people were able to contribute their top 20 or 25 lists - I suspect something like "K-39" would have made many people's lists in that case.)

Ivan
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I really appreciate the clear and incisive thought that went into the responses to my question in the original post. I especially want to thank Matt Quilter (reventlos). His response both rephrased the heart of of my question more concisely, “Why do The Challengers not seem to be as revered as many of the other first-wavers?” and provided a beautiful and cogent answer. Matt's answer also seemed to validate my original post and opened the floodgates for more intelligent and stimulating observations and discussion.

I also think Ivan made two very good points about (1) the early Challengers being a very different band from their later albums and (2) the impact that being able to vote for the top 20 or 25 tracks might have on the 101 results.

It all made for very enjoyable reading and it was a learning experience for me. Many thanks to the sg101 community for taking the time to post.

-Tim
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What are these top 101 lists you all speak of? I've been gone too long...

"as he stepped into the stealthy night air... little did he know the fire escape was not there"

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BillAqua wrote:

What are these top 101 lists you all speak of? I've been gone too long...

Bill, see also here on the forum:
https://surfguitar101.com/forums/forum/north-sea-surf-radio/

Jeff(bigtikidude)

The Challengers definitely need more love! I think they're off the radar for some people today because most people into surf today were punk or metal kids who need a more aggressive sound. I dig the teenage punk fury bigtime, but I also REALLY dig the Challengers!

Here's two albums everyone should own... Go Sidewalk Surfing and Sidewalk Surfing which was also released as The Good Guys.

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You know, thinking about this a bit more, the surf music historians often talk about the dual origins of surf music: the Dick-Dale Orange County Rendezvous Ballroom part and then the Belairs South-Bay part. Well, the Challengers are really the embodiment of the South Bay surf sound. Of course Delvy was part of the Belairs, and he continued to work with PJ quite a lot throughout the Challengers history, and then you had people like Art Fisher and several others that came out of other South Bay surf bands, who were all heavily influenced by PJ. So, there is an emphasis on that intricate interplay between lead and rhythm guitar as well as absence of reverb, which are characteristics of Paul's style. Maybe the "Sidewalk Surfing" album, given that it has Paul on lead and that it came out in '65, as surf music was dying out, is really the apex of the South Bay surf sound. That's how I think of it, anyway.

Ivan
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First of all, thanks to Matt Q for texting with me with a heads-up about this discussion. Reading your posts has definitely stimulated me into wanting to chime in with some reflections that might be of interest...

I think the general trend of these comments has been pretty much on target; I, too, would have thought that "K-39" would be on the list, and I agree that it's absence might have had to with the Challengers being a "tame" sort of surf band... and re this, it seems to me that they were something different than the bulk of "kids" bands on the scene (Surfaris, Chantays, etc.). Delvy was, first and foremost, a shrewd businessman, and his decision to depart the Belairs in mid-'62 had everything to do with his vision for creating a commercial "hybrid" band that included some local south bay kids (to relate to the current scene), along with some seasoned studio musicians — Hal Blaine, Steve Douglass, and others.. (to insure a "pro" quality).

He was also among the first producers to anticipate the potential for marketing albums rather than singles. At that time, the usual approach was to go for the "hit single;" albums were not yet as much a part of the formula as they were to become in the proceeding years...

This did result in a "commercial" sort of sound, and thus it did lack some of the "authenticity" of the groups of kids who were operating on their own without a "hotshot producer" such as Delvy.

In any case, for the record, I would like to document my own experience back then with Delvy and the Challengers:

Soon after he left the Belairs, I remember visiting him in his office on Yucca St. in Hollywood. I was somewhat impressed with his identification as a producer, rather than just as a musician. He had been learning the business by working with Merit Distributors, and now he was out to make his own way, with the Challengers as his primary "product" (though he also delved into the publishing game as well, with his acquisition of the rights to "Wipeout" serving to fuel his mission).

From early on in this process, he regularly requested the right to record my original tunes with the Challengers; on several occasions, he took me out to breakfast at the IHOP on Sunset, over which he would secure my signature on a publishing contract for my latest tune. Thus, a number of these tunes were included on Challengers' albums.

In addition to this, he also had projects for marketing other surf music albums with "fictitious" groups rather than with the Challengers. On three such occasions that I recall, he hired me to serve as arranger as well as guitarist on the project. One such was the "SurfBeat Vol. 2" album, recorded in '63 at the World Pacific studio and released under the name, the "Surf Riders." This date did include Art Fisher, Phil Pruden and Randy Nauert from the Challengers, as well as studiomen Hal Blaine and Steve Douglass. (I remember that Pruden regarded this as a big treat, as he was a devotee of fellow-saxman Steve Douglass, re his pioneer work with Duane Eddy, and here he was to be playing with his hero on arrangements adapted to dual saxes.)

Accordingly, this was very much like a Challengers date with me added to the lineup. But as I was the arranger as well, and pretty much in charge of the performances, I like to think that we achieved a sound that was a bit different from the Challengers, with my personal style more in evidence.

Even moreso was the "Sidewalk Surfing" project, an album initially released as by the "Good Guys;" this was my personal favorite among my Delvy projects, as I was able to record a great bunch of tunes with a hand-picked band (Art Fisher and John Anderson making us THREE guitars, plus Buzz Carré on bass, again with Pruden & Douglass on saxes, Hal Blaine on drums and former Belair Jimmy Roberts on piano.) Never could I have even dreamt of a better opportunity to make some great music!

There was a third project which included covers of some vaguely European-sounding tunes that was similarly fulfilling, but I have no idea as to what became of this album — I have no copy and I never heard anything of this album since we recorded it. (I seem to recall Delvy saying that this album was intended for foreign distribution; when I asked him about this in later years, he could not remember the project, and thus it remains a mystery to me to this day.)

There was one other related project, in which Delvy produced a session for "PJ & Artie," as Art Fisher and I had been playing together as a duo (an early variation on the "Duo-tones" theme?) For this he hired a different group of "studio cats' to play with us; in this case, these were all black guys who were prominent in the '50s for playing on numerous hits back then, as well as being the bulk of the original Ernie Freeman band ("Raunchy"). These were guys who played with a definite "New Orleans" feel, which gave these tracks a whole different flavor. Namely, they were: René Hall on bass, Sharky Hall (no relation) on drums, and the great Plas Johnson (he played the "Pink Panther Theme" on the Mancini hit, and demonstrated some of the best sax work of the '50s on a great many rock 'n roll hits.) Working with Plas and these other guys was one of my favorite musical experiences of all time. (Especially dear to me is the memory of getting Plas to condescend to play the "Squad Car" siren on his sax mouthpiece.)

This is pretty much a complete account of my involvement with Delvy back then.

At some later time, Delvy sought to stretch the Challengers' catalog by re-releasing "Sidewalk Surfing" under the Challengers' name. This underscores his tendency to operate as a businessman, which reflects back on the perception of the Challengers as a commercial-sounding band.

I will close by underscoring the fact that even if the projects I took part in were "commercial product" to Delvy, to me they were fantastic opportunities to make my own kind of music with great musicians. Accordingly, you can understand my appreciation of Ivan's regard for "Sidewalk Surfing" as "the apex of the South Bay sound." I happen to agree with his assessment whole-heartedly!

PJ -

Paul Johnson
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Paul Johnson wrote:

Reading your posts has definitely stimulated me into wanting to chime in with some reflections that might be of interest...

and

In any case, for the record, I would like to document my own experience back then with Delvy and the Challengers:

Paul, you have a gift for understatement. This is wonderful and invaluable information you have documented about The Challengers and the early history of surf music. It is an honor to hear it directly from you. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to these posts and share your memories.

-Tim
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Wow!! What a PERFECT way to start off the new year!!! Thank you very, very much, Paul, for all that! Extremely informative, and it sheds a lot of light on a part of surf music history that I've often wondered about. It was very nice of you to clear all of that up and set the record straight for good!

Now, all those of you who do not have the Good Guys/Challengers "Sidewalk Surfing" LP (or the Challengers "Killer Surf!" CD), you know what to do next....

Ivan
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shivers13 wrote:

The Challengers definitely need more love! I think they're off the radar for some people today because most people into surf today were punk or metal kids who need a more aggressive sound. I dig the teenage punk fury bigtime, but I also REALLY dig the Challengers!

I am also most grateful to hear PJ's detailed account of The Challengers. One tidbit I will add is that the kid on the skateboard on the cover of The Good Guys/Challengers "Sidewalk Surfing" LP is Neil Norman - the son of Gene Norman the "GN" of GNP Crescendo records. Neil now runs GNP. He told me of this in the studio when he was producing The Ventures "Wild Again" album. -Marty

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Last edited: Jan 01, 2016 13:44:09