Slaughter on 10th avenue

IvanP

Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10331
southern Michigan
United States

Posted on May 08 2015 04:59 PM

Whatever you want, John.

—

Ivan
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EL34

Joined: Jul 02, 2013
Posts: 83
Pisgah Forest, NC
United States

Posted on May 08 2015 05:35 PM

I have to agree with j Mo' on his Shadows comments

Not that that accounts for anything meaning full on my part

—

My Music recordings - https://el34world.com/Misc/Music/music1.htm
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CrashHardtop

Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Posts: 152
Meridian, Idaho
United States

Posted on May 08 2015 05:36 PM

Alright now boys, we want a good, clean fight here. No holding or hitting below the belt. Now touch gloves, go to your corners and come out when you hear the bell.

—

More cowbell?? Nah...More Reverb!!

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JohnnyMosrite

Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 913
New York City area

Posted on May 08 2015 06:04 PM

Ivan - "Whatever I want"... what a marvelous philosophy you have.

That line really isn't from me. The "Toecutter' said that to the railway station master when the Nightrider's remains were delivered in the first Mad Max movie circa 1979.
I've been dying to say that to someone.
J Mo'

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IvanP

Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10331
southern Michigan
United States

Posted on May 08 2015 08:37 PM

JohnnyMosrite wrote:

Ivan, surely little-old-harmless-fuzzball-J Mo'-me has a right to his opinion. Anyone go against your "God-awful" critique of the Shadows Japan album or the somewhat negative aspersion "shacked up" (haven't heard that term in decades) description of Welch and Olivia Newton-John's relationship? (Hint: Answer is "NO").

J Mo', from Bruce Welch's 1989 autobiography, "Rock 'n' Roll, I Gave You the Best Years of My Life", pages 179-180:

"On Saturday, 14 December 1968 I made my final appearance on stage with the Shadows. It was an emotional farewell - and as we took our final curtain call together on stage at the Palladium, Hank presented me with an engraved clock in appreciation of my services.

I didn't perform on stage again for nearly two years. Instead I took the job I had intended to take five years before, looking after our publishing company... Olivia and I bought Jerry Lordan's old house at Hadley Common, near Totteridge, and set about turning it into our home. I turned my hand to decorating - something I had never done before - and became a real homebird. I wanted to spend as much time with Olivia as I possibly could. I had seen what long absences away from home had done to relationships in the past; they had ruined my marriage, and I didn't want it to happen again. I was contented, and easily slipped into a new way of life. I was happy with my lot and in love with Olivia.

I did very little during 1969 other than set up home and get to know Livvy (Olivia). The Shadows, meanwhile, recruited Alan Hawkshaw on keyboards and accompanied Cliff Richard on a tour of the Far East. In Tokyo they recorded a live album at Sankei Hall, which was released shortly afterwards as Live In Japan. Hank thought it was awful, and I could only agree."

—

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
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DannySnyder

Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11079
Berkeley, CA
United States

Posted on May 08 2015 08:42 PM

It's pretty obvious that the Ronson version is influenced by the Shadows version, but filtered through David Bowie. Being a Bowie fan myself, I'm intrigued how similar Ronson's solo albums are to Bowie's sound at the time. I didn't know he had such an impact on the production. But then reading more I learned that Ronson was a very serious all around musician producer.

Plus I learned the key to Ronson's trademark tone from the Ziggy era was to leave his wah wah in one position, makes total sense to me now that I read it.

—

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac'

Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

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JohnnyMosrite

Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 913
New York City area

Posted on May 08 2015 09:12 PM

Ivan,
Bruce said Hank said it was awful; you said it was God-awful.
I'm curious - So who's opinion is the greater degree of awful about the recording at Sankei Hall - yours or Hanks?
trying to form some perspective, here (And keep the pot stirred)
J Mo'

Top

IvanP

Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10331
southern Michigan
United States

Posted on May 08 2015 09:13 PM

Cool, Danny, thanks. Yes, Ronson truly had a signature style and sound, and was quite groundbreaking and influential. I know the cocked-wah trick became the basis of Michael Schenker's sound, too (and from there, Adrian Smith's of Iron Maiden), I wonder if that was a direct influence from Ronson.

For whatever it's worth, the Shadows fan community does tend to hold the Shads' version of Slaughter... in very high regard, while dismissing the Live In Japan album. Two widely acknowledged experts on the Shadows, Malcolm Campbell and Rob Bradford, wrote the following:

Campbell, "The Shadows At EMI: The Vinyl Legacy", 2001:

"In December 1969 there appeared a dismal-sounding LP (as members of the group have often remarked; see for instance Alan Hawkshaw cited by Rob Bradford in John Rostill p. 56) The Shadows Live In Japan..."

Here's that passage from the Bradford book on John Rostill, "Funny Old World", 1988, p. 56, quoting Alan Hakwshaw:

"The album was a mistake. It's a dreadful album. The recording of that show was never really intended for release. The sound quality is appalling. Normally, Japanese product is superb. We couldn't believe the dreadful sound quality of the recording. It turned out that they'd recorded the whole thing just using one microphone! Hank and Bruce attempted to block the release of the LP, but it was too late."

So, you see, I wasn't just giving my opinion when I called the album God-awful. There is widespread agreement on this point, and by now you could really say that it's simply a fact.

Here's what Bradford and Campbell have to say about Slaughter...:

Campbell, the above-mentioned book, p. 312:

"It is generally agreed that Slaughter... is an outstanding release..."

Bradford, liner notes to The Shadows at Abbey Road, 1997:

"Although the Shadows majestic performance translated to commercial disaster as a single, it was an artistic triumph. A very ambitious arrangement featured a full orchestra, plus the keyboard talents of Alan Hawkshaw. Hank switches between electric and classical guitars to great effect. I don't believe that it's been credited before, but the truly magnificent orchestral arrangement was not by Norrie Paramor. So, take a bow... Brian Bennett. This must surely rank as one of his finest moments from the 1960s."

Of course, if you don't like it, you don't like it, and that's just fine. But the track is just as beloved among the serious Shadows fans as the "Live In Japan" album is loathed....

—

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

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JohnnyMosrite

Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 913
New York City area

Posted on May 08 2015 09:24 PM

Ivan,
i listened to the Shads' Slaughter once.. had to quit 1/3 way through a second listen. verdict: Nope - It still sucks.
To each his own
J Mo'

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websurfer

Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 1753
United States

Posted on May 08 2015 11:32 PM

I think that Shadows version is really nice! And I'm a big fan of the Ventures version. It's a surprise to hear it slow, but it really gives it a different feel...a new way to appreciate the melody. And that's the drummer's arrangement? Very ambitious--epic like--actually. A real re-imagining and not just a cover of a cover.

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IvanP Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 10331 southern Michigan	Posted on May 08 2015 04:59 PM Whatever you want, John. — Ivan Lords of Atlantis on Facebook The Madeira Official Website The Madeira on Facebook The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook The Space Cossacks on Facebook The Madeira Channel on YouTube Top
EL34 Joined: Jul 02, 2013 Posts: 83 Pisgah Forest, NC	Posted on May 08 2015 05:35 PM I have to agree with j Mo' on his Shadows comments Not that that accounts for anything meaning full on my part — My Music recordings - https://el34world.com/Misc/Music/music1.htm My YouTube Videos - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLACF3A52140161B33 My Guitar amp forum - https://el34world.com/Forum/index.php Top
CrashHardtop Joined: Jun 14, 2012 Posts: 152 Meridian, Idaho	Posted on May 08 2015 05:36 PM Alright now boys, we want a good, clean fight here. No holding or hitting below the belt. Now touch gloves, go to your corners and come out when you hear the bell. — More cowbell?? Nah...More Reverb!! Top
JohnnyMosrite Joined: Jun 14, 2006 Posts: 913 New York City area	Posted on May 08 2015 06:04 PM Ivan - "Whatever I want"... what a marvelous philosophy you have. That line really isn't from me. The "Toecutter' said that to the railway station master when the Nightrider's remains were delivered in the first Mad Max movie circa 1979. I've been dying to say that to someone. J Mo' Top
IvanP Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 10331 southern Michigan	Posted on May 08 2015 08:37 PM JohnnyMosrite wrote: Ivan, surely little-old-harmless-fuzzball-J Mo'-me has a right to his opinion. Anyone go against your "God-awful" critique of the Shadows Japan album or the somewhat negative aspersion "shacked up" (haven't heard that term in decades) description of Welch and Olivia Newton-John's relationship? (Hint: Answer is "NO"). J Mo', from Bruce Welch's 1989 autobiography, "Rock 'n' Roll, I Gave You the Best Years of My Life", pages 179-180: "On Saturday, 14 December 1968 I made my final appearance on stage with the Shadows. It was an emotional farewell - and as we took our final curtain call together on stage at the Palladium, Hank presented me with an engraved clock in appreciation of my services. I didn't perform on stage again for nearly two years. Instead I took the job I had intended to take five years before, looking after our publishing company... Olivia and I bought Jerry Lordan's old house at Hadley Common, near Totteridge, and set about turning it into our home. I turned my hand to decorating - something I had never done before - and became a real homebird. I wanted to spend as much time with Olivia as I possibly could. I had seen what long absences away from home had done to relationships in the past; they had ruined my marriage, and I didn't want it to happen again. I was contented, and easily slipped into a new way of life. I was happy with my lot and in love with Olivia. I did very little during 1969 other than set up home and get to know Livvy (Olivia). The Shadows, meanwhile, recruited Alan Hawkshaw on keyboards and accompanied Cliff Richard on a tour of the Far East. In Tokyo they recorded a live album at Sankei Hall, which was released shortly afterwards as Live In Japan. Hank thought it was awful, and I could only agree." — Ivan Lords of Atlantis on Facebook The Madeira Official Website The Madeira on Facebook The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook The Space Cossacks on Facebook The Madeira Channel on YouTube Top
DannySnyder Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 11079 Berkeley, CA	Posted on May 08 2015 08:42 PM It's pretty obvious that the Ronson version is influenced by the Shadows version, but filtered through David Bowie. Being a Bowie fan myself, I'm intrigued how similar Ronson's solo albums are to Bowie's sound at the time. I didn't know he had such an impact on the production. But then reading more I learned that Ronson was a very serious all around musician producer. Plus I learned the key to Ronson's trademark tone from the Ziggy era was to leave his wah wah in one position, makes total sense to me now that I read it. — Danny Snyder "With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac' Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF Top
JohnnyMosrite Joined: Jun 14, 2006 Posts: 913 New York City area	Posted on May 08 2015 09:12 PM Ivan, Bruce said Hank said it was awful; you said it was God-awful. I'm curious - So who's opinion is the greater degree of awful about the recording at Sankei Hall - yours or Hanks? trying to form some perspective, here (And keep the pot stirred) J Mo' Top
IvanP Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 10331 southern Michigan	Posted on May 08 2015 09:13 PM Cool, Danny, thanks. Yes, Ronson truly had a signature style and sound, and was quite groundbreaking and influential. I know the cocked-wah trick became the basis of Michael Schenker's sound, too (and from there, Adrian Smith's of Iron Maiden), I wonder if that was a direct influence from Ronson. For whatever it's worth, the Shadows fan community does tend to hold the Shads' version of Slaughter... in very high regard, while dismissing the Live In Japan album. Two widely acknowledged experts on the Shadows, Malcolm Campbell and Rob Bradford, wrote the following: Campbell, "The Shadows At EMI: The Vinyl Legacy", 2001: "In December 1969 there appeared a dismal-sounding LP (as members of the group have often remarked; see for instance Alan Hawkshaw cited by Rob Bradford in John Rostill p. 56) The Shadows Live In Japan..." Here's that passage from the Bradford book on John Rostill, "Funny Old World", 1988, p. 56, quoting Alan Hakwshaw: "The album was a mistake. It's a dreadful album. The recording of that show was never really intended for release. The sound quality is appalling. Normally, Japanese product is superb. We couldn't believe the dreadful sound quality of the recording. It turned out that they'd recorded the whole thing just using one microphone! Hank and Bruce attempted to block the release of the LP, but it was too late." So, you see, I wasn't just giving my opinion when I called the album God-awful. There is widespread agreement on this point, and by now you could really say that it's simply a fact. Here's what Bradford and Campbell have to say about Slaughter...: Campbell, the above-mentioned book, p. 312: "It is generally agreed that Slaughter... is an outstanding release..." Bradford, liner notes to The Shadows at Abbey Road, 1997: "Although the Shadows majestic performance translated to commercial disaster as a single, it was an artistic triumph. A very ambitious arrangement featured a full orchestra, plus the keyboard talents of Alan Hawkshaw. Hank switches between electric and classical guitars to great effect. I don't believe that it's been credited before, but the truly magnificent orchestral arrangement was not by Norrie Paramor. So, take a bow... Brian Bennett. This must surely rank as one of his finest moments from the 1960s." Of course, if you don't like it, you don't like it, and that's just fine. But the track is just as beloved among the serious Shadows fans as the "Live In Japan" album is loathed.... — Ivan Lords of Atlantis on Facebook The Madeira Official Website The Madeira on Facebook The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook The Space Cossacks on Facebook The Madeira Channel on YouTube Top
JohnnyMosrite Joined: Jun 14, 2006 Posts: 913 New York City area	Posted on May 08 2015 09:24 PM Ivan, i listened to the Shads' Slaughter once.. had to quit 1/3 way through a second listen. verdict: Nope - It still sucks. To each his own J Mo' Top
websurfer Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 1753	Posted on May 08 2015 11:32 PM I think that Shadows version is really nice! And I'm a big fan of the Ventures version. It's a surprise to hear it slow, but it really gives it a different feel...a new way to appreciate the melody. And that's the drummer's arrangement? Very ambitious--epic like--actually. A real re-imagining and not just a cover of a cover. Top

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Slaughter on 10th avenue