I've looked through the forums and couldn't find this topic so please forgive me if this has been talked about elsewhere. I am trying to learn and understand modal scales and progressions so that I can add more variety to my playing/writting. Anyone have any suggestions? Has anyone learned any tricks that apply specifically to Surf Music?

For example, I've learned that songs that use a major tonic (the key of the song) and a major subtonic (the flattened 7th) are always in the mixolydian mode. Example: songs where the bass line bounces between G (the tonic) & F (the flattened 7th) like Jack the Ripper and Baja. Jack the Ripper is a great song to use as a backing track to practice the mixolydian scale, btw.

This isn't an uncommon rhythmic progression in instro-music so it's a good thing to know. Have you figured out any little "tricks" like that?

Kevin

Kevin
The Out of Limits
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ncgalt1984 wrote:

Jack the Ripper is a great song to use as a backing track to practice the mixolydian scale, btw.

I know I'm off topic but do you know where to find a good Jack the Ripper backing track? I love playing that song and have been looking for one for quite some time.

OMG!

I feel like a total idiot…

I do not know WHAT you are talking about at all…

This is total nonsense for me.

I just know that when you play guitar the melodies for new songs are rising from playing and feeling! I do not know theory of music but I always compose songs. I do not think about adding jazz chords just to get interesting music.

The melodies and good arrangements are NOT in any theory book. They are inside you! Or not…

Twang cheers!

Ralf Kilauea

www.kilaueas.de

https://kilaueas.bandcamp.com/album/touch-my-alien

Creative process /writing - improvising - etc/ and learning is two different thing. If you learn more, you'll have more material, when you start something creative stuff. You don't have to use it, your creativity will

If you play blues pentaton through your life, and you're happy, it's ok, if you start to be bored... you need to learn something

but to learn something in music doesn't mean: learn theory, you can follow theoretical pathes, but you have to 'learn with your ears' - if you want to be a - musically - richer musician. I hope, you understand what I want to say - my english isn't too good

original compositions (low-level demo stuff /out of tune, etc) myStuff not my best, but i don't like to be in a musician community without anything to show

Last edited: Apr 16, 2014 10:25:28

annoying music, but playing with - not just modal - scales is funny

original compositions (low-level demo stuff /out of tune, etc) myStuff not my best, but i don't like to be in a musician community without anything to show

Simon, I think I was trying to say the same thing you said; I was just way over-simplifying the way I said it. I may be wrong, though, because I understand this stuff just barely enough to be dangerous.

In a way though, the reason I started this thread is because I want to try to over-simplify it in a way. I was purposely making a generalization because I don't know that I will ever have the time to become an expert on this stuff. I'm interested in knowing if there are any safe "generalizations" when it comes to surf music. For example, if you have a song that is an Andalusian cadence (Walk Don't Run, Lullaby of The Leaves, Perfidia, etc) is there a particular mode that will "generally" work really well or a simply way to identify the tonic, etc. Just little tips or tricks that you've learned through your experience.

Kevin
The Out of Limits
www.facebook.com/theoutoflimitsband
https://theoutoflimits.bandcamp.com/

Last edited: Apr 16, 2014 11:48:52

Surf_Skater wrote:

ncgalt1984 wrote:

Jack the Ripper is a great song to use as a backing track to practice the mixolydian scale, btw.

I know I'm off topic but do you know where to find a good Jack the Ripper backing track? I love playing that song and have been looking for one for quite some time.

There was that discussion here - perhaps Psychonaut still has it or can upload it to the download section. Would be a good addition for the site.

Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel

DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.

I just spent 2 hours jamming the Mixolydian scale over a G Major Jam track on Youtube. Loads of fun. Mixing the Mixolydian with the Minor/Blues scale opens up a lot of combinations.

FYI, in case anyone was wondering, the reason I started this post here is because I am a huge fan of Tony Rice and I read in his autobiography that for Bluegrass the main things to know are the Major/Country, Minor/Blues, Dorian, and Mixolydian scales. I started messing around with Mixolydian last night and it got me to wondering about which scales are most common in Surf. The ones I see/use the most in Surf are Major and Minor/Blues when I am thinking in terms of scales. A lot of what I do on electric is by ear, though, as others have stated.

Kevin
The Out of Limits
www.facebook.com/theoutoflimitsband
https://theoutoflimits.bandcamp.com/

Last edited: Apr 16, 2014 18:05:54

ncgalt1984 wrote:

I'm interested in knowing if there are any safe "generalizations" when it comes to surf music.

I think it is safe to say that there are no really safe generalizations. Each song is different and if you want to get a grasp on them on a theoretical level you have to do a new analysis every time. However: Once you know your modes you will recognize that each one of them has a certain sound to them, which can be recognized by hearing, meaning that you will be able to tell just by listening, whether a tune is in dorian, aeolian etc.

About the relation of chords and scales: What Birki listed above is pretty much what you will find in any jazz book: for every chord there are usually several scales that fit and you change the scales along with the scales. However this will sound like Jazz, not so much like surf music (or Blues), where you mostly have a single scale over a progression of chords that fit the scale. But one important thing to keep in mind is, that tunes are not necessarily limited to using just one scale: Often you have the verse in one mode, than the chorus in another or even have changes in the middle of just one of these parts.

HallmarkSweptwinger wrote:

Sometimes I look for different scales and try to automatize them in me. But you have to do it every day! Then it works.

I had this problem too at first, but there is a simple way to memorize the modes by understanding them as extensions of the major and minor pentatonic scales or variations of the major and minor scales:

An example: this diagram shows the familiar minor pentatonic in the fifth position:

e|--(X)---|--------|--------|---x----|
h|---x----|--------|--------|---x----|
g|---x----|--------|----x---|--------|
D|---x----|--------|---(X)--|--------|
A|---x----|--------|----x---|--------|
E|--(X)---|--------|--------|---x----|
     5                  7

The pentatonic has the structure: 1 b3 4 5 b7, i.e. root ((X)), minor third, fourth, fifth and minor seventh. If you add the major second and the minor sixth you get the aeolian scale:

e|--(X)---|--------|---x----|---x----|--------|
h|---x----|---x----|--------|---x----|--------|
g|---x----|--------|----x---|--------|--------|
D|---x----|--------|---(X)--|--------|---x----|
A|---x----|--------|----x---|---x----|--------|
E|--(X)---|--------|----x---|---x----|--------|
     5                  7                9

But if you add the major sixth instead of the minor sixth you get dorian, and so on:

minor pentatonic: 1    b3  4  5    b7
aeolian (minor):  1  2 b3  4  5 b6 b7
dorian:           1  2 b3  4  5  6 b7 => "dorian sixth"
phrygian:         1 b2 b3  4  5 b6 b7 => "phrygian second"
lokrian:          1 b2 b3  4 b5!b6  7 => "lokrian fifth and second"

major pentatonic: 1  2  3     5  6  
ionian (major):   1  2  3  4  5  6  7
lydian:           1  2  3 #4  5  6  7 => "lydian fourth"
mixolydia:        1  2  3  4  5  6 b7 => "mixolydian/minor seventh"

There are really just one or two notes per scale wich differ, and with the key phrases it is not that hard to remember.

Have a nice day everybody!

Los Apollos - cinematic surf music trio (Berlin)
"Postcards from the Scrapyard" Vol. 1, 2 & 3 NOW available on various platforms!
"Chaos at the Lobster Lounge" available as LP and download on Surf Cookie Records!

Last edited: Apr 17, 2014 06:30:17

hi!

"I had this problem too at first, but there is a simple way to memorize the modes by understanding them as extensions of the major and minor pentatonic scales or variations of the major and minor scales:"

yep. as far as switching modes is concerned ... for me, it is simply a way to get out of the rut. i think that sticking to phrases is a problem for most guitarists ... at least for the uneducated and lesser gifted like me

btw, i once saw a book that dealt a lot with the connection of the pentatonic and the modes (as simon pointed out, this is fairly simple, at least in the first position as dorian and lydian, ionian and aeolic and phrygian and mixolydic follow the same patterns) and the more intelligent use of the fretboard... it is called advanced modern rock guitar improvisation by jon finn ...

yours wolfi

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Last edited: Apr 17, 2014 06:23:58