JObeast
Joined: Jul 24, 2012
Posts: 2762
Finknabad, Squinkistan
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Posted on Dec 12 2013 02:08 PM
Solidarity between musicians is where it's at. The trouble in America is the 'rugged individualist' ethos which makes cooperation among those not schooled in Anarchism or Marxism a hard sell. Venue owners in towns like LA are avaricious to make the mafia blush and I think they invented 'pay-to-play' here in the hair-band 80s.
Punks, riot grrls and other self-described social outsiders have a better time of making a truly alternative scene which is about community and creative expression.
My guess is that players of instro, being more music-oriented and less driven by social theories and ideologies (also being significantly older by and large) are behind the curve or just not as interested in music-as-social-revolution (political punx might call surf/instro 'counter-revolutionary' as it's simply apolitical insofar as it's lyrics-free). Music for its own sake has been heavily colonized by the music industry and pay-to-play is one ugly result.
I say boycott the f*&%ers! Build an alternative network or hook up with an existing one.
— Squink Out!
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raito
Joined: Oct 16, 2008
Posts: 552
Madison, WI
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Posted on Dec 12 2013 04:26 PM
I would not pay to play...
but I might rent a venue to play in.
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surferjoemusic
Joined: Jan 01, 2008
Posts: 2107
Livorno
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Posted on Dec 12 2013 05:37 PM
pay to play or self-producing your own show?
these are 2 different things. they both can have advantages and disadvantages.
i do not think most of you are right judging how things really are.
the bigger you become, the more people come to see you, the more you want to produce your show... if you consider this pay to play. you simply make more money.
also keep in mind that any live music form is a business. in many countries, like italy and germany, clubs start from minus to have a band playing... money gone in taxes.
if bands do not attract people for various reasons (like jake says) or if bands are amateurs in promotion (like danny says) why someone should have to pay you money to play?
lately i pay my own promotion, i pay for my posters, i pay for shipping them, i pay gas, i pay facebook promotion, i pay a steady to my usual musicians. so i pay to play... if you see it on a certain angle.
but there are different point of views, whether you are the musician or you the promoter/organizer. it all depends on what is your goal, what you want to obtain and what is your target.
i do not consider anything bad or wrong per se. as long as there is purpose in what you do. there are wrong situations and sometimes dishonest, i have seen many, but not in recent years. the reality is that there is very little money around "small" music. this is why everybody goes crazy. people dont care about music and they dont go to live shows.
— Lorenzo "Surfer Joe" Valdambrini
(www.surfmusic.net)
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DannySnyder
Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11076
Berkeley, CA
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Posted on Dec 12 2013 07:21 PM
surferjoemusic wrote:
if bands do not attract people for various reasons (like jake says) or if bands are amateurs in promotion (like danny says) why someone should have to pay you money to play?
Because it's their business. Food doesn't sell itself does it? Beer isn't responsible for promoting it's presence at the bar. They have to buy food, drinks and convince people to eat it, why not buy the band and convince people to see them? How is it different from a pure business perspective?
— Danny Snyder
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo
I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac'
Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta
Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party
Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF
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vintagesurfdude
Joined: Nov 28, 2011
Posts: 795
Prescott Valley, AZ
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Posted on Dec 13 2013 01:33 AM
Realistically, I judge venues by their ability to provide potential new fans. Which gets more important as you expand the geography in which you perform. For most of us, the further from home, the less you're known. Venues in which the band is expected to bring the crowd just don't work out. It's less of an issue in the local area, but we still don't do pay to play gigs. That's just the club not providing an environment that makes people want to go check out the bands. However, our band has rented a venue and done a fan appreciation gig where we provided the tunes , food and beverages. We asked for a donation, sold CD's and merch and made a profit. So be creative, but I'd recommend avoiding any bar or club that wants you to buy and then resell tickets to pay for your work.
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surferjoemusic
Joined: Jan 01, 2008
Posts: 2107
Livorno
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Posted on Dec 13 2013 03:35 AM
DannySnyder wrote:
surferjoemusic wrote:
if bands do not attract people for various reasons (like jake says) or if bands are amateurs in promotion (like danny says) why someone should have to pay you money to play?
Because it's their business. Food doesn't sell itself does it? Beer isn't responsible for promoting it's presence at the bar. They have to buy food, drinks and convince people to eat it, why not buy the band and convince people to see them? How is it different from a pure business perspective?
food and beer do sell by themselves. plus you buy wholesale and sell retail. the band is only a cost, an expense. it is more often NOT a key reason why people come to eat your food and drink.
but again it all depends on the purpose you have and what you want to do, to reach. it can be that the entertainment works for the club owner as beautiful furniture and it is convenient to keep it. many times the clients would prefer not to have entertainment at all.
the possibility for some club to do door tickets is a perfect meter. the ticket is the best thing to do because you KNOW if a band generate interest or not. this is why - although as a musician i dont like it - i find the door deal formula the most fair.
now, i understand perfectly what you say danny. when you say that it is their business. but please remember that bands to do not help to sell food and drink in general. of course we are talking about bar venues. not actual music venues. in that case we are always talking of a door deal, whether it is on the band or on the promoter who takes the risk because the only profit comes from tickets plus a little extra from beers.
another example. a festival. people do not come because of the bands only, actually probably the bands are just the 50% of cake. people come because of the atmosphere, the context you are going to find.
the are exceptions in everything of course and there are absolutely no rules, but opinions guided by serious experience.
— Lorenzo "Surfer Joe" Valdambrini
(www.surfmusic.net)
Last edited: Dec 13, 2013 03:36:41
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surferjoemusic
Joined: Jan 01, 2008
Posts: 2107
Livorno
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Posted on Dec 13 2013 03:43 AM
vintagesurfdude wrote:
Realistically, I judge venues by their ability to provide potential new fans. Which gets more important as you expand the geography in which you perform. For most of us, the further from home, the less you're known. Venues in which the band is expected to bring the crowd just don't work out. It's less of an issue in the local area, but we still don't do pay to play gigs. That's just the club not providing an environment that makes people want to go check out the bands. However, our band has rented a venue and done a fan appreciation gig where we provided the tunes , food and beverages. We asked for a donation, sold CD's and merch and made a profit. So be creative, but I'd recommend avoiding any bar or club that wants you to buy and then resell tickets to pay for your work.
on this i totally agree with you. resell your tickets to pay for your show is actually wrong, this is not the right way of doing it. one thing is the self-production, one thing is doing the job of someone else. but trust me most clubs provide the environment to invite to check new bands, there are idiots around, but most people are good people and they do all they can do. just people, is NOT interested in music. they dont care, they do not listen, they do not go. more often people who says to be involved in a music genre do not also go to the concerts of that genre.
— Lorenzo "Surfer Joe" Valdambrini
(www.surfmusic.net)
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klaatu
Joined: Mar 14, 2013
Posts: 14
Atlanta, Georgia
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Posted on Dec 13 2013 10:11 AM
Pay to play? No way Jose`!
To the 'rent a venue' approach although I've never done it I'm guessing that's not as harsh as it first appears, in fact promoters do this all the time, it's part of what they do. But if I'm going to do a promoter's job I'm going to be in it for the promoter's end of the business as well and right now that's just not me. Might be someday though you just never know ...
— Navigation and Terminal Guidance systems, Gemini 13
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RevGeo
Joined: Nov 14, 2013
Posts: 24
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Posted on Dec 13 2013 11:05 AM
Fortunately I play, and have pretty much played all of my musical life, in clubs that have live music regularly. They hire new bands all the time and if the club regulars don't like them they aren't hired back. At some clubs the first time a band plays they get less than a band thats played the club before and has proved themselves. That is only fair.
The whole 'sell your own tickets' scam is just that - a scam. Don't do it! Find a place to play for free instead and sell your merch. I'd rather lose money doing it myself than lose money while making money for some unscrupulous club owner/promoter.
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surferjoemusic
Joined: Jan 01, 2008
Posts: 2107
Livorno
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Posted on Dec 13 2013 08:23 PM
RevGeo wrote:
Fortunately I play, and have pretty much played all of my musical life, in clubs that have live music regularly. They hire new bands all the time and if the club regulars don't like them they aren't hired back. At some clubs the first time a band plays they get less than a band thats played the club before and has proved themselves. That is only fair.
The whole 'sell your own tickets' scam is just that - a scam. Don't do it! Find a place to play for free instead and sell your merch. I'd rather lose money doing it myself than lose money while making money for some unscrupulous club owner/promoter.
Yes this is sure to be agreed. I might have not been clear earlier but of course I do not mean a "sell your ticket" situation. This IS bad of course  But I never even found that honestly... If I have to sell my tickets, then I sell them ALL and actually produce my show. But as I explained this is a different policy and a different approach.
— Lorenzo "Surfer Joe" Valdambrini
(www.surfmusic.net)
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Jaque_Kilauea
Joined: Oct 05, 2011
Posts: 110
Eastern Berlifornia
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Posted on Jan 16 2014 08:19 AM
psychonaut wrote:
Pay to play is the most demeaning, humiliating, detrimental thing you can do as a musician. A firm and resounding NO!!
+1
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killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
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Posted on Jan 16 2014 09:23 AM
The 'pay-to-play' thing is a hot topic with me. We were actually approached just this week to participate in one. They are pretty easy to spot, even before the details are presented, as they, at least in this area, are almost always Sunday shows and you will be approached by someone that isn't even located in your area. They will say that they are producing a show and have 'rented out' a particular venue. Often these are under the guise of a 'battle of the bands' as well. Anyway, here is the description of conditions I was sent earlier this week regarding this particular show. I will spare you all by not posting a copy of my response to this guy. Lets just say that, despite being very professional, it was a pretty insulting message.
"Okay, for this One Night Only Event and bands are getting 30 min slots. It will be all metal and rock-based genres performing. Show starts at 4pm on 3/2. It’s all ages and there will be no back line. Bring all your own gear. I hired a sound tech and a stage hand to help with the set changes. A full PA system will be provided. It’s a $10 ticket and we send you 50. Sell 25 in order to lock in your time slot early. Then, the other 25 are yours to sell for your profit, giveaway, or discount. Otherwise you must turn in the unsold tickets. If you want to confirm for this show, let me know and I'll get right back to you with the booking info we need from you."
— THE KBK ... This is the last known signal. We offer Sanctuary.
www.thekbk.com
http://www.deepeddy.net/artists/thekbk/
www.reverbnation.com/thekbk
www.facebook.com/thekbkal
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Jaque_Kilauea
Joined: Oct 05, 2011
Posts: 110
Eastern Berlifornia
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Posted on Jan 16 2014 09:38 AM
killbabykill34 wrote:
The 'pay-to-play' thing is a hot topic with me. We were actually.."
We have this battle of the bands thing going on here to. First price is often one day in studio. Hooray.
Never participated in one of this things with one of the bands i played in.
The trick is that you HAS to bring you friends so that they can vote for you to win the contest. Therefore you need to sell all the tickets to your friends. Or give them for free...
And the promoter is laughing and counting his money.
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