Guitar Getting Squashed in the Mix

norcalhodad

Joined: May 25, 2006
Posts: 537
United States

Posted on Mar 21 2013 10:26 AM

Alright, Tone-death. Lots to take in here. A new spooky surf band sounds promising, so I hope hear some Mummula soon. Post some sounds when you can.

—

>

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DannySnyder

Joined: Mar 02, 2006
Posts: 11076
Berkeley, CA
United States

Posted on Mar 21 2013 10:39 AM

This thread is priceless with it's sage advice. Even we more experienced bands need to be reminded of these issues occasionally, I know I do.

We may end up sticky-ing it. Keep it coming surf veterans!

I'm going to move this to the surf musician forum.

—

Danny Snyder

"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac'

Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party

Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF

Last edited: Mar 21, 2013 10:39:55

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caddady

Joined: Feb 14, 2010
Posts: 802
N.E. Ohio
United States

Posted on Mar 21 2013 03:03 PM

Tone-death, sent you a PM.

—

http://www.reverbnation.com/thegreasemonkeyz

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normj

Joined: Apr 26, 2010
Posts: 882
central Indiana
United States

Posted on Mar 21 2013 03:30 PM

Guys,

Sometimes it is not just a volume issue. Even withthe band playing at a reasonable volume a guitar may get lost in the mix. In such a case, adding a clean boost can help that guitar cut through the mix. Something like a Timmy pedal would do this (a transparent overdrive).

Talk to you later,
Norm

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Tuck

Joined: Sep 02, 2006
Posts: 3166
Denver, CO
12 Calendar Pins

Posted on Mar 21 2013 05:05 PM

Nothing ruins the sound of a band like everybody playing everything loud all the time in the same frequency range. Sometimes it's due to lack of thought about arrangements. Sometimes it's due to band volume idiocy. Sometimes it's a sound guy treating the levels like everybody's a punk band (or whatever). Usually it's all three issues seamlessly combined. Nothing makes you sound wonderful like getting this right. Especially not playing louder.

Even in a trio it's amazing how much better a band sounds that realizes power of having one or the other of the instruments silent at the right times. The more instruments you have the more important it is to get the relative volumes, the frequency spaces, and the silences right. I suspect that playing a lot in trios is one of the things that has made people forget this.

As a non-musician I learned this partly from hearing band people talk about punk sound setups mess up surf music, partly from hearing really pro rockabilly guys talk about the importance of having cymbals pitched right to fit the sound spaces, and partly from the object lesson of a couple local garage bands. One group has a bunch of virtuosos with great taste in songs, impressive resumes, but no sense of arrangement or coherence. They generally sound like 5 or 6 sledge hammers pounding on anvils. The other group is a bunch of inexperienced young men with ideas. Half the time only 2 or 3 of the 5 are playing and some of them don't always hit the right notes either. But they sound enormously better, because they plan how to make the whole thing sound like they want it to sound.

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casey

Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 521
2 Security Pins

Posted on Mar 22 2013 04:23 AM

Of course as Norm and Tuck say it's not just volume but what I think of as "sonic space". If, for instance, the lead on a song is being played by a single coil stratocaster, the bass can easily cover it up if he's using roundwound strings and doesn't roll of the treble quite a bit. Same thing with a "dirty" sounding guitar, especially if it's a humbucker. When I am playing rhythm guitar, whether behind a vocalist or another instrument, my job is not to sound good - it's to make the vocalist/lead instrument (and therefore the band) sound good.

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narciso

Joined: Mar 29, 2010
Posts: 324
Spain
Spain

Posted on Mar 22 2013 09:01 PM

I have always had that problem when I have played with my stratocaster plugged to my twin reverb ri or my ampeg sj12r. With the strat I had always to fight with the keyboard and the bassplayer to cut through the mix and I ended using only the bridge pickup. I solved the problem just turning down the reverb a little bit and using an old Ibanez GE9 eq pedal as a booster with the mids cranked. Now every pickup in my strat cut through the mix nicely, the sound is still clean without shrill tones and the low end sounds tight and not as boomy as it used to.

—

https://lospipelines.es/
Find us on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, and all other music platforms.
https://www.youtube.com/@LosPipelines
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SanchoPansen

Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
Germany

Posted on Oct 24 2013 02:59 AM

After starting over with my band (mostly new members) I can really say it IS self-control in most cases. We changed the setup to 2 guitars (really hard to keep the balance), bass, drums, sax and vocals (yes, we are a non-instro 'surf' band). You really need to talk about volume and playing style.
First of all you have to get to a level that suits the vocals and sax, so no matter what PA you get, you can still hear the vocals and sax.
Again, I can't say it often enough: self-control is the key. As a guitar player, here's what I've learned:
- a boost pedal is NOT an always on pedal
- try strumming closer to the neck in rhythm parts
- don't crank it up when you dial in some overdrive
- use your guitar volume knob
A question to the US guys: do you have the same issue as a surf band like I/we experienced on our side of the planet? It's always the same. You come to a venue, set up your gear and as soon as you flick that switch of the amp and hit your first note, the sound guy starts yelling: 'Turn down the guitar, it's too loud.' I mean, I play at a reasonable volume (3-4 on a BF Bassman) and they always start complaining about the volume. They want to control your guitar in the mix and that's okay. But do you also have to explain to them that it is surf music and the guitar replaces the vocals on the instro songs. Next terrible thing: Bassdrum gets cranked in the mix. Most sound guys I've met are very limited to what they can do. They want every band to sound the same. Most of them love classic RAWK music and tend to mix the drums like they're mixing a Zeppelin album. Big mistake for surf.
So, what are your experiences? I'd love to hear and maybe get some hints how to handle the sound guy issue.

Cheers
Sancho

—

The Hicadoolas

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Hammond101

Joined: Feb 22, 2013
Posts: 342
SoCal USA

Posted on Oct 25 2013 06:08 PM

Sancho, I play guitar including the surf genre as well as drums. I also mix a lot of sound. A good sound man or woman for that matter will know what to do. The open minded mixologist will listen to you and the hard headed will not.

I traveled with a Beatles tribute band for a while and mixed. Sometimes I used our gear, that was always great but at large shows and venues sound reinforcement was provided. Many young sound folk just don't get it. Everything should have a big thumping kick drum in the subs and the mix needs to be bass heavy.....so they think. I'd tell these kids, (I'm 57) "You need to mix them to sound like the Beatles, not like a metal band." That got the smart one's attention right away. Most, still didn't "hear" what I was talking about. Some would surrender their board to me and actually learn something. Most...not so much. It could be an argument all night.

In short, there is no magic answer to make live shows easy all the time. The only way to ensure getting what you want 100% on the time is to bring your our sound guy and state in the contract for the venue that he will mix your show. The only other solution is to always bring your own PA gear and sound guy. A costly solution for sure.

I feel you pain brother. I did a little fill in on guitar last Saturday night. I played 4-5 blues tunes then switched to surf. Back to the amp I go and grab some volume and some reverb. Yes, it must be out front. That is the way it must be. The other guitar player, not a surf guy, who I just met looked at me as if I was crazy but got it as soon as the drummer, a long time friend kicked off Apache.

—

Keep it Drippy Brothers and Sisters!

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norcalhodad Joined: May 25, 2006 Posts: 537	Posted on Mar 21 2013 10:26 AM Alright, Tone-death. Lots to take in here. A new spooky surf band sounds promising, so I hope hear some Mummula soon. Post some sounds when you can. — > Top
DannySnyder Joined: Mar 02, 2006 Posts: 11076 Berkeley, CA	Posted on Mar 21 2013 10:39 AM This thread is priceless with it's sage advice. Even we more experienced bands need to be reminded of these issues occasionally, I know I do. We may end up sticky-ing it. Keep it coming surf veterans! I'm going to move this to the surf musician forum. — Danny Snyder "With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo I am now playing trumpet with Prince Buster tribute band 'Balzac' Playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta Formerly a guitarist in The TomorrowMen and Meshugga Beach Party Latest surf project - Now That's What I Call SURF Last edited: Mar 21, 2013 10:39:55 Top
caddady Joined: Feb 14, 2010 Posts: 802 N.E. Ohio	Posted on Mar 21 2013 03:03 PM Tone-death, sent you a PM. — http://www.reverbnation.com/thegreasemonkeyz Top
normj Joined: Apr 26, 2010 Posts: 882 central Indiana	Posted on Mar 21 2013 03:30 PM Guys, Sometimes it is not just a volume issue. Even withthe band playing at a reasonable volume a guitar may get lost in the mix. In such a case, adding a clean boost can help that guitar cut through the mix. Something like a Timmy pedal would do this (a transparent overdrive). Talk to you later, Norm Top
Tuck Joined: Sep 02, 2006 Posts: 3166 Denver, CO	Posted on Mar 21 2013 05:05 PM Nothing ruins the sound of a band like everybody playing everything loud all the time in the same frequency range. Sometimes it's due to lack of thought about arrangements. Sometimes it's due to band volume idiocy. Sometimes it's a sound guy treating the levels like everybody's a punk band (or whatever). Usually it's all three issues seamlessly combined. Nothing makes you sound wonderful like getting this right. Especially not playing louder. Even in a trio it's amazing how much better a band sounds that realizes power of having one or the other of the instruments silent at the right times. The more instruments you have the more important it is to get the relative volumes, the frequency spaces, and the silences right. I suspect that playing a lot in trios is one of the things that has made people forget this. As a non-musician I learned this partly from hearing band people talk about punk sound setups mess up surf music, partly from hearing really pro rockabilly guys talk about the importance of having cymbals pitched right to fit the sound spaces, and partly from the object lesson of a couple local garage bands. One group has a bunch of virtuosos with great taste in songs, impressive resumes, but no sense of arrangement or coherence. They generally sound like 5 or 6 sledge hammers pounding on anvils. The other group is a bunch of inexperienced young men with ideas. Half the time only 2 or 3 of the 5 are playing and some of them don't always hit the right notes either. But they sound enormously better, because they plan how to make the whole thing sound like they want it to sound. Top
casey Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 521	Posted on Mar 22 2013 04:23 AM Of course as Norm and Tuck say it's not just volume but what I think of as "sonic space". If, for instance, the lead on a song is being played by a single coil stratocaster, the bass can easily cover it up if he's using roundwound strings and doesn't roll of the treble quite a bit. Same thing with a "dirty" sounding guitar, especially if it's a humbucker. When I am playing rhythm guitar, whether behind a vocalist or another instrument, my job is not to sound good - it's to make the vocalist/lead instrument (and therefore the band) sound good. Top
narciso Joined: Mar 29, 2010 Posts: 324 Spain	Posted on Mar 22 2013 09:01 PM I have always had that problem when I have played with my stratocaster plugged to my twin reverb ri or my ampeg sj12r. With the strat I had always to fight with the keyboard and the bassplayer to cut through the mix and I ended using only the bridge pickup. I solved the problem just turning down the reverb a little bit and using an old Ibanez GE9 eq pedal as a booster with the mids cranked. Now every pickup in my strat cut through the mix nicely, the sound is still clean without shrill tones and the low end sounds tight and not as boomy as it used to. — https://lospipelines.es/ Find us on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, and all other music platforms. https://www.youtube.com/@LosPipelines https://www.instagram.com/los_pipelines/?next=%2F Los Pipelines - Facebook Top
SanchoPansen Joined: Jan 04, 2011 Posts: 1588 Berlin L-Berg	Posted on Oct 24 2013 02:59 AM After starting over with my band (mostly new members) I can really say it IS self-control in most cases. We changed the setup to 2 guitars (really hard to keep the balance), bass, drums, sax and vocals (yes, we are a non-instro 'surf' band). You really need to talk about volume and playing style. First of all you have to get to a level that suits the vocals and sax, so no matter what PA you get, you can still hear the vocals and sax. Again, I can't say it often enough: self-control is the key. As a guitar player, here's what I've learned: - a boost pedal is NOT an always on pedal - try strumming closer to the neck in rhythm parts - don't crank it up when you dial in some overdrive - use your guitar volume knob A question to the US guys: do you have the same issue as a surf band like I/we experienced on our side of the planet? It's always the same. You come to a venue, set up your gear and as soon as you flick that switch of the amp and hit your first note, the sound guy starts yelling: 'Turn down the guitar, it's too loud.' I mean, I play at a reasonable volume (3-4 on a BF Bassman) and they always start complaining about the volume. They want to control your guitar in the mix and that's okay. But do you also have to explain to them that it is surf music and the guitar replaces the vocals on the instro songs. Next terrible thing: Bassdrum gets cranked in the mix. Most sound guys I've met are very limited to what they can do. They want every band to sound the same. Most of them love classic RAWK music and tend to mix the drums like they're mixing a Zeppelin album. Big mistake for surf. So, what are your experiences? I'd love to hear and maybe get some hints how to handle the sound guy issue. Cheers Sancho — The Hicadoolas Top
Hammond101 Joined: Feb 22, 2013 Posts: 342 SoCal USA	Posted on Oct 25 2013 06:08 PM Sancho, I play guitar including the surf genre as well as drums. I also mix a lot of sound. A good sound man or woman for that matter will know what to do. The open minded mixologist will listen to you and the hard headed will not. I traveled with a Beatles tribute band for a while and mixed. Sometimes I used our gear, that was always great but at large shows and venues sound reinforcement was provided. Many young sound folk just don't get it. Everything should have a big thumping kick drum in the subs and the mix needs to be bass heavy.....so they think. I'd tell these kids, (I'm 57) "You need to mix them to sound like the Beatles, not like a metal band." That got the smart one's attention right away. Most, still didn't "hear" what I was talking about. Some would surrender their board to me and actually learn something. Most...not so much. It could be an argument all night. In short, there is no magic answer to make live shows easy all the time. The only way to ensure getting what you want 100% on the time is to bring your our sound guy and state in the contract for the venue that he will mix your show. The only other solution is to always bring your own PA gear and sound guy. A costly solution for sure. I feel you pain brother. I did a little fill in on guitar last Saturday night. I played 4-5 blues tunes then switched to surf. Back to the amp I go and grab some volume and some reverb. Yes, it must be out front. That is the way it must be. The other guitar player, not a surf guy, who I just met looked at me as if I was crazy but got it as soon as the drummer, a long time friend kicked off Apache. — Keep it Drippy Brothers and Sisters! Top

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Guitar Getting Squashed in the Mix