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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Gear »

Permalink Fender's Dirty Secret - Laquer Scam

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Very interesting article:
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Fender-apos-s-Dirty-Secret-Lacquer-Scam/10000000004616415/g.html

Fenders Dirty Little Secret - by Jim Cara,, Cara Guitars - USA's Original Hot Rod Guitar Shop
The Plastic Coating of Guitars since 1963

Fact:
All Fender Guitars made since 1963 are Polyester coated. Lacquer is put on top of the poly to satisfy the general publics belief that Nitro Cellulose (nitro) Lacquer finished guitars "breathe", "dry" and generally have become the bottom line for creating great tome. I'm talking USA, Vintage collectable instruments that the general public has bought, traded, and sold for over 50 years. They came from the Fender factory with a hard plastic jacket underneath it. a suffocating wolf, masquerading under a cloak of Lacquer Fender later switched to 100% Poly and UltraViolet cured resin on Squire, Mexican, Japanese, some USA and all other imports till this day.

Fact:
The two-part catalyzed coating named "Fullerplast" (Fuller for Fuller O'Brien, the products creator, and plast for the obvious PLASTIC"), solved all of Fenders finishing problems; encasing the deep wood pores in a self-hardening plastic that wrapped the body in a rock-hard solid coffin. In some cases we have found it to be as thick as a.060 string. Yes, all of the wood moisture and characteristics are sealed in a virtual time-capsule, only to be vented from the body through screw holes and paint fractures. Share this info and be the hit of your next guitar gathering!

Fact:
Fender rarely mentions Fullerplast, or the way it prepares its bodies before applying Lacquer. If they mention it at all
So, when someone tells you that a Fender "nitro-cellulose" or "nitro" finished guitar will sound better, have more warmth, or will dry out... they really don't have the full story.

Ask any seasoned guitar craftsman what happens when you will apply paint stripper to a Fender "nitro" finish. The nitro color comes off within minutes, leaving the guitar with a rock-hard plastic coating that can not be removed with any chemical means. Sandpaper barely scratches this coating, but will remove it with mechanical help. Heat Guns will remove the coating, but not by softening it. Apply heat to the Fullerplast coating and it will remain solid until about 300F, at which time it will crack, and pop off of the guitar.

It's a fact, , its scientific, and it's the skeleton in Fenders closet, that they never want to be seen. They have kept it locked away like a bastard child, allowing players, collectors, and experts to spread the "nitro" legend as the holy-grail of tone!

When did Fender start the plastic coating process, and why?

Most experts agree that Fullerplast was started to be used by Fender in 1963
There are many experts that are willing to share the facts with the guitar community, just as I am.

The most time consuming part of finishing a solid guitar body, is the process of filling the wood pores, and allowing the paint to lay flay, with a gloss found on Grand Pianos, or automobiles. Fender needed a fast and easy solution in order speed up production during the guitar craze of the early 1960s. Encasing the wood in a smooth, hard, "glass" jacket would eliminate up to 20 hours in each body prep. Fender even experimented with a hot dip that resembled a candy apple method. The problem was that the dip mixture would need to be at a temperature that would damage the wood, or cause body moisture to create "steam pops" in the coating

When Fender switched to Alder (from Ash) as it's primary body wood in mid 1956, many books and authorities state Fender started using the product called "Fullerplast" This is a very misunderstood product. For example, there is a picture in Tom Wheeler's American Guitars, page 54 (upper left corner), of a man with long rubber gloves dipping bodies into a tank at Fender in the late 1950's. The description incorrectly denotes the man is applying Fullerplast to the bodies. Most likely, this man is staining the Alder bodies yellow, a process used on Alder from 1956 and later before spraying the sunburst finish.. Thanks to VintageGuitarHQ for this info

Fullerplast is a clear, sprayed chemically curing sealer, unaffected by solvents after it dries. It's invention is often given credit to Fuller O'Brien (but often though to be named after the city of Fullerton, the home of Fender) Whether either is the case, it is now manufactured and distributed by Van Dee

Fullerplast soaks into the wood and creates a seal that prevents following coats from soaking into the wood like a sponge. This means spraying the color coats is easier and the coats can be applied thinner (saving material, money and dry time). Even though alder is a "closed pore" wood, the first few coats of lacquer will soak in like a sponge without some type of sealer coat. Fullerplast dries in 15 minutes, and is paintable in one hour. It is also applied very thin.
Most experts agree the actual product Fullerplast actually started to be used around 1963 at Fender. Prior to that, Fender used other products as their sealer coat, but they did the same thing. The sealer allowed any color coat (be it sunburst or a custom color) to not soak into the wood. Since the sealer is essentially a clear inexpensive primer, less color would be needed (and color costs a lot more money than a cheap sealer).

Another misconception about Fullerplast is it's color. The sealers Fender used including Fullerplast were clear, not yellow. The yellow seen in the unpainted portions of a 1956 and later Alder body is actually a stain or dye applied under the sealer coat. This was used to simplify the sunbursting process. The Alder bodies are dipped in a vat of yellow stain/dye. Next the Alder body is sealed with a very thin coat of clear sealer (i.e. "Fullerplast"). After drying, the sunburst procedure is continued by spraying the translucent red (starting in 1958) and dark blackish-brown on the edges of the body, which completes the sunburst look. Finally a clear coat is sprayed over the entire body to seal the colors. By dipping the alder bodies in a yellow stain first, instead of spraying yellow lacquer, there is one less step of lacquer to mix, spray, and dry. *

By fall 1964, Fender changed the yellow making it more whitish and opaque to better hide flaws in the wood. This allowed Fender to use cheaper Alder with more cosmetic flaws. The more whitish yellow was then sprayed over the sealer coat, as were the red and brown of the Sunburst. That is why the red and yellow now looks much different on late 1964 and later Fenders. This new whitish-yellow bleeds through the translucent red making it more orangish. Note that even though Fender was now spraying the yellow after the Fullerplast, they still continued to stain or dye the bodies yellow before the sealer coat.

Current use of Polyester and UV coatings on Fender Guitars.
Probably cause for another article is the case of Ultra Violet cured paints and sealers now used by most production guitar manufacturers. UV allows a very thick and durable coating to be applied directly over bare wood without any need for pore filling. UV cures the paint to its hardest state within minutes, not allowing the finish to soak into the wood.

If you have ever chipped an Ibanez guitar, you know what I mean.
Essentially, beneath every vintage Fender is an Ibanez coating in-waiting for you.

WIN A BET,
BUT GET A PUNCH
The next time someone brags about how good their "lacquer" Fender guitar sounds, because it breathes, try this.

Take a cotton swab dipped nail polish remover, and take a wipe at an inconspicuous area on the guitar. Either
1) The finish will remain un-touched, or
2) You will wipe away the color coat, and see the rock-hard, insoluble Fullerplast. (sunburst guitar photo on left)

If all the finish comes off and you get to bare wood, the Fender guitar has been stripped and refinished.

Either way, you get to say you know something, before you hit the floor.

https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

Last edited: Jul 21, 2013 10:42:10

I don't see what's wrong with that. Lacquer is cool because it's thinner, it wears nicer, and doesn't feel as sticky... But I don't buy in to the whole "lacquer breathes" business. It's not a scam or anything like it, IMHO. Be cool to hear Dave's thought's, though.

IMO.

This article is largely derided on the internet. It comes from caraguitars.com. It is just way over the top and is quite sensationalist.

"ctrl + f : fullerplast": http://home.provide.net/~cfh/fenderc.html

It isn't a scam, it is just how the prepped the bodies. Fender wasn't toting the "nitro finish" back in the day.

I'm sure anybody who has ever stripped a '63-'68 Fender on here will tell you there isn't a "rock hard plastic coating" underneath.

not my words, just something I thought worth reading.
Personally I really don't care what a guitar is finished with as long as it plays well. My japanese strat is every bit as resonant as any vintage laquer guitar I have.
I once stripped a 1965 mustang, and though I didn't encounter rock hard plastic, I did encouter the infamous yellow dye - which didn't make any sense as they didn't sunburst mustangs back then. Always wondered about that.

https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

Last edited: Jul 21, 2013 11:11:29

_"_The next time someone brags about how good their "lacquer" Fender guitar sounds, because it breathes, try this."

Two issues here ... Lacquer does "breath" in the sense that it is not a continuous coating but more resembles fish scales in the way it coats.

IF there is some sonic difference it would not be due to breathing but rather more related to the thickness which may influence the damping effect on the body.

psychonaut wrote:

not my words, just something I thought worth reading.

I know! The article is just really one-sided and acutely written. Judging by the source of the article, I am hardly surprised.

Nitro/Poly on a body makes no difference to me. I've never had any of my guitars finished in both nitro and then poly and then a brand new nitro coat again to test the differences.

Neck, though... I've gotta have worn in nitro. And by gotta... I mean I prefer it!

I had a '72 Jazzmaster which I loved, better than the AVRI series but not as good as my '66 which is not as good as my '60. Love them all though!

You "gotta" get one of those '65 jazzys, so you can compare vintage with reissue with higher end reissue.... Wink

I'm really thankful, though, that you pointed me towards this mustang neck... I strung her up the other day(yeah, that didn't end well...), and I "gotta" say - I prefer it! It was quite honestly so much more comfortable than any other neck I own, except perhaps my "La Patrie" classical... But damn, does that neck feel amazing! The wear on it is cool too, because it makes me play in other areas of the neck I don't normally venture to... Hard to explain. I will say that I like nitro!

Groovy Rimshot Guitar

IMO.

The guy at Brentwood Guitars UK mentioned using a bleach on Fender sunburst bodies. I hope this isn't too far off topic since you are mainly talking vintage USA models..

Here's a mid 90's MIJ Fotoflame which i took down to the wood - crazy fool I am.
The front and back were kind of dyed pale yellow, it wasn't paint but penetrated the wood quite a few thousands of an inch.
image

The Fotoflame layer was a black & white patterned piece of paper, it was the poly coating that gave the colours.
image

After a few hours rubbing down with wet & dry I decided to use a hairdryer at low setting, with a little heat the poly coating peeled off like orange skin, 20 minutes later and I was done!

Jimmy Cara? No thanks.

crumble wrote:

The guy at Brentwood Guitars UK mentioned using a bleach on Fender sunburst bodies. I hope this isn't too far off topic since you are mainly talking vintage USA models..

Here's a mid 90's MIJ Fotoflame which i took down to the wood - crazy fool I am.
The front and back were kind of dyed pale yellow, it wasn't paint but penetrated the wood quite a few thousands of an inch.
The Fotoflame layer was a black & white patterned piece of paper, it was the poly coating that gave the colours.
After a few hours rubbing down with wet & dry I decided to use a hairdryer at low setting, with a little heat the poly coating peeled off like orange skin, 20 minutes later and I was done!

It is strange but I have the same thing on a 87 mij Jaguar that I bought recently... You can see on this pictures that under the thin poly sunburst paint, there is this very hard white plastic layer ... it seems to be all over the body exept in the neck pocket and the pickups/tremolo cavities... the wood is somewhere under.
image
image

http://noskons.bandcamp.com/

Is his wood pattern even real ? honestly i don't know^^
image

http://noskons.bandcamp.com/

I had a black Fender Lead II back in the 1980's as with most of that time period the finish was "foggy", most started to chip and peel. It was the same for those who bought the 25th Anniversary Strat in '79, the silver paint was horrible.

JakeDobner wrote:

I'm sure anybody who has ever stripped a '63-'68 Fender on here will tell you there isn't a "rock hard plastic coating" underneath.

Jake,
My experience backs up what you say. I have never found a hard plastic coat under a vintage Fender Strat.

Later,
Norm

Just someone else trying to sell their own.....I look at it this way. If this was indeed being done back around 63' just think of all the big name musicians, not to mention the music they created on Fender guitars. Whether or not this coating existed doesn't seem to be an issue as I highly doubt that people were sitting around the radio of record player pointing out "hey now that sounds like a straight nitro finished guitar."

ConcreteSurfer wrote:

I look at it this way. If this was indeed being done back around 63' just think of all the big name musicians, not to mention the music they created on Fender guitars."

Good point. I believe SRV's No 1 was a Strat of that period. Definitely no hard plastic shell on it. He picked it down to bare wood.

Fullerplast does exist and Fender used it sometimes to prep bodies. But the way that story spins it, distorts the facts.

Later,
Norm

my 2 cents...

i had a 91 USA strat, it was sunburst. of course i wanted it natural wood, so i sanded it down mostly by hand. there was a think layer of poly on top, but that's it. there was no plastic sealer on the body. i'm pretty sure i would have noticed that.

and as mentioned above re SRV's strat. how would you account for all those old strats that are worn down to the wood?

i've personally never noticed any difference between poly and nitro, but nitro does look cooler when worn out, however on the neck i love a nice satin poly finish. nothing feels smoother! Smile

ParkRowe wrote:

however on the neck i love a nice satin poly finish. nothing feels smoother! Smile

Come play my my '60 Jazzmaster. There is not a smoother neck on this planet!

i would love to play a '60 Jazzmaster!

I'll bring the beer Smile

I prefer nitro because of the feel and the way it wears. It's also possible to get a thinner finish, so breathing aside, I think a thin finish helps a guitar resonate more.

Is a heat gun (hairdryer) the only thing you used to strip that guitar Crumb? I'm going to paint our guitar player's MIM bass in nitro and if it's easy to strip the poly I'll do it before spraying nitro. The poly is unreal thick and slick.

UPDATE: I used a heatgun and it fell off the body. That finish was THICK.

www.apollo4.com

Last edited: Aug 02, 2013 04:17:50

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