stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
|
Posted on Jun 17 2013 09:22 PM
Here's my problem: I play with a Strat. I've got custom shop 54s is the neck and middle which have a vintage stagger (humbucker in the bridge).
I've always played plain 3rd on electric since I started but over the years I noticed there's this "warble" and it bothered me more and more.
So I went to wound 3rd. Now, a plain 3rd is the loudest string on the guitar but the D and the B are still close in volume. When I went to the wound 3rd it dropped off the planet! It's WAY quieter than the D and B (the B is now the loudest on the guitar with the D a close second).
I put in vintage staggers hoping to help it out. It did, but the pole piece is still high on the D and the D and B (even though the B pole piece is flush with the top of the pup) are still noticeably louder than the G. I mean, it is definitely more quiet in comparison to the other strings than the plain G is louder!
My latest solution has been to try nickel-steel on the G (I use pure nickel on the other wounds). I have stainless frets though and a "bendable" nickel steel G (18) gets the windings torn up within a week. I've tried 20 and it's a little more durable but of course harder to bend.
So then I tried stainless steel 18 and 20. Definitely more durable - though I broke a brand new 20 2/3 of the way into a gig on Saturday.
I was hoping the stainless would be both brighter and more magnetic, increasing the volume - or at least seeming louder because they're brighter. They do sound more like a plain string, which is OK. But even the 20s are still not loud.
My options at this point are to try larger G strings (22) adn give up bending and/or smaller D and B strings (in the hope less mass will also quiet them down, but the B is already the least tension on the guitar and quite easy to bend).
Another option is to go back to a plain 3rd and just live with the warble, though I'd need to go back to a "modern stagger" pup which means money, time in the shop, etc.
Another option would be to try some kind of "balanced" pups or something (I don't think it will help much though as I believe the fields are wide enough that they don't "target" a specific string). Again, money and time in the shop, with unknown results.
I could also just compress the crap out of the guitar signal so any too loud strings get cut down, but I don't like to do that.
Anyone else been through this mess and found a solution?
Steve
|
eddiekatcher
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2778
Atlanta, GA
|
Posted on Jun 17 2013 10:54 PM
You are right about the wound/plain 3rd. Fiddled around with that challenge quite a bit on my AVRI Jazzmasters. Finally ended up using the D'adarrio 12-52 flats and a .020 plain third. Did use a .022 briefly but it had a really strange harmonic (warble) that annoyed the pooh out of me.
Now, I have been known to "adjust" the relative height of Jazzmaster pole pieces to compensate for that sort of thing and you can get away with it if you are careful and lucky. They are just pressed into the bobbins and a light tap with a punch can move them a bit. But DO NOT try to move the poles on either end........instant pickup destruct-o. I have heard that there are "issues" with eddy currents (as opposed to eddie currents, I guess) when the bottoms of the pole pieces are not exactly aligned but I can't hear anything screwy.
Oddly enough if you lower the whole pickup a bit that will help as well.
Good luck and best reverbs,
eddie k
— Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?
|
tubeswell
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 1424
Wellington, NZ
|
Posted on Jun 18 2013 02:59 AM
Yes I've tried a wound third (.022) on my AVRI JM and it sucks for bending. I prefer plain .019 or .020)
— He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Surf Daddies
|
JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
|
Posted on Jun 18 2013 03:09 AM
Always plain for me, even if the set comes with wound. Used to play wound on my Jags back in the day which is easier than on a Jazzmaster/Strat/Tele. In the end I found it hurt my left hand expression too much.
|
SlacktoneDave
Joined: Jul 01, 2006
Posts: 657
|
Posted on Jun 18 2013 07:30 AM
I have just resolved that I need different guitars with different styles of strings to get the desired results. Surf = Chromes .012" for Jaguars, .011" on Strats. Rock = GHS Burnished .010" set on Strats, Telecaster, .011 GHS Burnished on Jaguar used for rock.
As far as "warble" goes... play lighter on a plain "G" to balance against the volume of the other strings. Lower the bass side of the pickups until the low "E" has a pure, single tone when played all the way up to the end of the neck. I now use a thin piece of foam under the strings at the tailpiece on a Jaguar to get rid of the two notes at the same time sound on the lower strings.
When you switch from a guitar with a wound "G" to a guitar with a plain "G" the extra volume and "tubbyness", as I call it, of the plain "G" will be annoying, so I just try to lighten up the touch of the right hand to balance.
*know that when you push the down the magnets of a vintage style pickup you may damage it because of the direct contact with the coil windings.
|
BillAqua
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 1054
Chicago IL.
|
Posted on Jun 18 2013 07:37 AM
I think when I used a Jaguar with flats it was always 11s or 12s with a plain G. Maybe I'm wrong but I also remember it being slightly easier to bend a wound G on the Jaguar than any longer scaled Fender so maybe I had a wound G. I do know that if I did use a plain G it would have been a pretty heavy one.
Never experienced any warble issues on any guitar tho. That's weird.
— "as he stepped into the stealthy night air... little did he know the fire escape was not there"
https://www.facebook.com/reluctantaquanauts/
https://www.facebook.com/TheDragstripVipers/
|
midwestsurfer
Joined: Aug 09, 2007
Posts: 308
Indianapolis
|
Posted on Jun 18 2013 07:45 AM
SlacktoneDave wrote:
I have just resolved that I need different guitars with different styles of strings to get the desired results. Surf = Chromes .012" for Jaguars, .011" on Strats. Rock = GHS Burnished .010" set on Strats, Telecaster, .011 GHS Burnished on Jaguar used for rock.
As far as "warble" goes... play lighter on a plain "G" to balance against the volume of the other strings. Lower the bass side of the pickups until the low "E" has a pure, single tone when played all the way up to the end of the neck. I now use a thin piece of foam under the strings at the tailpiece on a Jaguar to get rid of the two notes at the same time sound on the lower strings.
When you switch from a guitar with a wound "G" to a guitar with a plain "G" the extra volume and "tubbyness", as I call it, of the plain "G" will be annoying, so I just try to lighten up the touch of the right hand to balance.
*know that when you push the down the magnets of a vintage style pickup you may damage it because of the direct contact with the coil windings.
This is solid advice and about what I would tell anyone who came into the shop with this same question. Personally, I prefer a wound G on my instruments.
— -Nick
Gypsy Moonshine on Reverbnation
Gypsy Moonshine on Facebook
|
SlacktoneDave
Joined: Jul 01, 2006
Posts: 657
|
Posted on Jun 18 2013 07:47 AM
BillAqua wrote:
Never experienced any warble issues on any guitar tho. That's weird.
All Fender vintage single coil pickups magnetic field will pull on the low "E", and plain "G" to produce a "warble" if the pickup is not far enough away. The neck pickup pulls more, so, it should be lowered on the bass side until the effect is adequately diminished. To test, play a note on the low "E", and just let it ring while listening for an out of tune sound.
|
FlatRacer
Joined: Apr 07, 2008
Posts: 182
|
Posted on Jun 18 2013 09:54 AM
I used to buy D'Addario strings but the odd overtones I was hearing from the G string prompted me to switch to Fender strings which I've been using since.
Eric
|
SlacktoneDave
Joined: Jul 01, 2006
Posts: 657
|
Posted on Jun 18 2013 11:07 AM
Those at both made by same company. I have to solder the plain stings on a .012" set on a Jag or they will come unwound early in a show.
|
killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
|
Posted on Jun 18 2013 11:23 AM
With my Hallmark I had to start soldering the high E, as I was having unwinding issues that were constant. I haven't had a problem since starting the soldering.
— THE KBK ... This is the last known signal. We offer Sanctuary.
www.thekbk.com
http://www.deepeddy.net/artists/thekbk/
www.reverbnation.com/thekbk
www.facebook.com/thekbkal
|
stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
|
Posted on Jun 19 2013 12:18 PM
SlacktoneDave wrote:
BillAqua wrote:
Never experienced any warble issues on any guitar tho. That's weird.
All Fender vintage single coil pickups magnetic field will pull on the low "E", and plain "G" to produce a "warble" if the pickup is not far enough away. The neck pickup pulls more, so, it should be lowered on the bass side until the effect is adequately diminished. To test, play a note on the low "E", and just let it ring while listening for an out of tune sound.
Different issues.
When the pickups are too close (or have too strong of a magnetic field) they actually "pull" on the string. This causes a condition known as "strat-itis". It's most noticeable on the larger strings and in a "modern" set with a plain G, the G and Low E are going to be the first to be affected because they have the most magnetic pull respectively (and of course, vintage stagger contributes to this on a G).
However, a second issue is that a plain G string's mass-to-tension ratio is not correct - it's too "stiff" to the tension it has when in tune. THIS IS WHY ACOUSTIC GUITARS HAVE A WOUND 3rd! A plain 3rd doesn't sound "right". It's also why Electric guitars originally came with wound 3rds.
In other words, for most standard scale lengths, the 3rd string should be a wound string. A plain 3rd string produces odd overtones described variously as a "warble" or "clangy" or "out of tune", etc.
I've picked up 30 strats in a store (I used to work in a guitar shop) and all of them exhibit this same problem.
For many years, I never noticed it and it never bothered me, but for one thing, I used to also play a lot of high gain stuff and it's not as noticeable there, and now that I play clean or with an "edge of breakup" drive more often, it's more noticeable plus I've become more critical of my tone as I've, ahem, "matured".
|
stevel
Joined: Oct 12, 2012
Posts: 219
Hampton Roads, Virginia
|
Posted on Jun 19 2013 12:33 PM
eddiekatcher wrote:
.020 plain third. Did use a .022 briefly but it had a really strange >harmonic (warble) that annoyed the pooh out of me.
I used to play 9s, then 10s, then 11s. As the size of the plain G went up (to 18) the warble became more noticeable. I can't imagine how bad a plain 22 would be.
Oddly enough if you lower the whole pickup a bit that will help as well.
My pups are almost flush with the pickguard on the bass side and only slightly higher on the treble!
The problem is that, in order to get rid of the warble, you have to use a plain 3rd. There may be some types of instruments, some scale lengths, etc. where it is not as pronounced but on strats, once you hear it you can't unhear it.
With a wound 3rd, the problem then becomes, it's too quiet.
I'd go up to 12-56 on a Strat but my tech had to grind off some of the saddle (I have those newer saddles that have the offset length adjust screw) because the low in an a set of 11s could not be intonated properly. I doubt I can put a 56 on the bottom! I could do a custom set of course but I'd love to know how all the people in the past got the G to be loud enough. Sometimes on recordings you can definitely pick out a weak string. On modern sets with a vintage stagger, you can pick out a "too loud G" when it's a plain G. If you listen to the beginning of "Don't Fear the Reaper" by Blue Oyster Cult and even "One" by Metallica (which I think he used active EMGs for) you'll start to notice the too-loud plain G.
I could go back to a plain G and just live with the warble, but then I'd need to swap pups to get a more modern stagger or compensated stagger. Because I've tried a set with a plain 3rd since I put in the vintage stagger pups and the G is WAY louder than everything else.
I could also go for a larger gauge G to see if the increased mass would bring up the volume but it would be ridiculously more tension than the rest of the set - bending would be on the top two strings and bottom 3 strings only (I have no problem bending D and A a whole step, and the low E I can get a m3 out of).
Steve
|
BillAqua
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 1054
Chicago IL.
|
Posted on Jun 19 2013 01:23 PM
Where is Strat Man Ivan? If there's anyone in this forum that can help its him.
How bad is the warble on the plain G? Haven't people been making Strats and plain Gs work for half a century now?
— "as he stepped into the stealthy night air... little did he know the fire escape was not there"
https://www.facebook.com/reluctantaquanauts/
https://www.facebook.com/TheDragstripVipers/
Last edited: Jun 19, 2013 13:25:33
|
Noel
Joined: Mar 15, 2011
Posts: 8528
Back in Piitsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up.
|
Posted on Jun 19 2013 02:41 PM
BillAqua wrote:
Where is Strat Man Ivan? If there's anyone in this forum that can help its him.
How bad is the warble on the plain G? Haven't people been making Strats and plain Gs work for half a century now?
When I bought Ivan's Jazzmaster it came with Thomastik-Infield Jazz Swing JS112 flat wounds (12-50) and a spare set. They have a flat 3rd (20). I believe these are also what he uses on his Strats. I've had no reason to change the strings the JM came with. I can attest to how great they sound and feel and I haven't heard a warble or strange harmonics at any volume level.
— This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.
Last edited: Jun 19, 2013 14:49:25
|
eddiekatcher
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2778
Atlanta, GA
|
Posted on Jun 19 2013 02:58 PM
The Jazzmaster has a higher string tension/scale length ratio than does a Strat. Additionally the springs directly coupled to the bridge on the Strat aggravite the issue by adding a "sproing" to the sound that drives me nuts. That's where the Jazzmaster has a bit of an advantage for one trying to eliminate the evil warble or magnet/string interaction issue. Now that all being said, different set gauges, materials, set styles (flat/round, whatever) all contribute in their own way to challenges dealing with string balance, tolerable action height and pickup placement and intonation. You just have to tweak. Everything is a trade off.
I really dig the heavy flats and I set up my guitars with zero neck relief. The big strings and tight tension let me get away with it and my guitars are very friendly to play considering I use those big fat strings that most non-surf players fear.
If I do install a wound third during a set change. It won't last long as I will probably break the crap out of it in about a hour or so.
I disagree with Steve on plain thirds. I think they are the greatest refinement in electric guitars since the invention of the amplifier. As a matter of note, I leared about it from Rich Fifield when the Astronauts played in Atlanta in June 1965. So that's let's see..... hummmm, ah, 48 years I have been using plain thirds. Old dude Katcher is set in his ways.
Best Regard to all (even if you disagree),
ed
— Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?
|
Noel
Joined: Mar 15, 2011
Posts: 8528
Back in Piitsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up.
|
Posted on Jun 19 2013 03:34 PM
Okay. I THOUGHT Ivan used those Thomastik flats on his Strats, but I've just read pages of his posts about strings and I'm very probably wrong.  Sorry.
And of course, if I could actually play my way out of a paper bag, what I think of wound 3rds might really mean something. 
— This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.
Last edited: Jun 19, 2013 15:45:06
|
eddiekatcher
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2778
Atlanta, GA
|
Posted on Jun 19 2013 07:59 PM
I think Ivan told me in Durham that he was using rotosounds. 12-52 Could be wrong though. What ever it is, he sounds great!
ed
— Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?
|
Noel
Joined: Mar 15, 2011
Posts: 8528
Back in Piitsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up.
|
Posted on Jun 19 2013 08:06 PM
From the man himself, in his own words. http://surfguitar101.com/forums/topic/17182/?page=1#p225277
Ed, your memory IS better than mine. 
— This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.
Last edited: Jun 19, 2013 20:10:50
|
eddiekatcher
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2778
Atlanta, GA
|
Posted on Jun 20 2013 09:19 AM
When the master speaks........ed listens.
If could get his tone, I might pick up a Strat................nah, probably not.
Too old to change. I bought my first Strat in June 1965. Candy apple red. Man did that look fine. Never did warm up to it. By '66 it was Jazzmaster number 1.........candy apple red.
Would love to have both of those for posterity. Woody makes an art form out of that concept.
ed
— Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?
|
April Birthdays 
