WR
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3832
netherlands
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 06:47 AM
okay, this is about something else really, more a comment on the "pedals are tonesuckers" ideology that we come across all the time.
fwiw, my own experience has been that while many buffered ("conventional", non boutique, non true bypass) pedals in the chain do suck tone to some extent, having just one or two of those in the line actually improves the tone. I figured this is because the pedal acts as a kind of preamp that helps driving (long) cables. anyway, looking for something else entirely, I came across this article which explains how it works. of course as with anything on internet, not sure how accurate it is, but intersting for anyone not about to sell their beloved carl martin surf tremolo nonetheless. here's an inetresting snippet that accords to my findings (my italics):
Taking all the above into account, if you want a more consistent guitar setup that sounds pretty much the same regardless of what cable you use (and is also relatively immune to amplifier loading), consider replacing your stock pickups with active types. Alternately, you can add an impedance converter ("buffer board") right after the guitar output (or for that matter, any effect such as a compressor, distortion box, etc. that has a high input impedance and low output impedance). This will isolate your guitar from any negative effects of high-capacitance cables or low impedance amp inputs.
— Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."
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SlacktoneDave
Joined: Jul 01, 2006
Posts: 657
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 07:48 AM
The term "true bypass" means the effect's switch is wired to pass the input signal directly from the input jack to the output jack when the effect is off. Other effects with silent, FET switching, like a Boss unit, are buffered, giving the signal a lower impedence able to drive long cables. The rewiring of effects to "true bypass" began for me with efx units like Electro Harmonix, Vox wah's, etc. When these efx are switch off, "loading" occurs on the guitar 's signal because the signal is still going through some circuitry that muddy's up the sound.
One interesting thing is that some of the earliest efx pedals like the Mosrite Fuzzrite, BossTone Fuzz, Colorsound efx., and Fuzz Face where all wired with "True Bypass". Maybe the reason TB wasn't used after that was because a TB effect will make a "Pop" through the amp when switched. Or, it's cheaper to make the efx box with a simpler switch.
Another issue most important for rock guitar sound is that when you use a pedal with silent, FET, Boss type switching, the lower impedance output of these can mess things up when you want to use Fuzz box, Rangemaster, or other old-style transistor efx. This is because the guitar pickup coil can't interact the same way with the input of the efx's circuitry. For this reason I put my Boss tuner on a "True Bypass" A/B looper box. Another reason is, I don't want the Boss tuner {the white tuner pedal} to change my sound, and I think it's also possible the silent switching circuitry can cause distortion when playing the guitar aggresively. enough blah ~ dave
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WR
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3832
netherlands
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 08:32 AM
dave, you use some sort of sophisticated preamp right? does that interact with a fuzzbox? is the sound simply better then with a pedal-buffer, or are there other advantages?
admittedly, Im not very anal about these things. I have a germanium fuzz which is first in line, and after that I have a buffered delay and tremolo. I had a two channel TB box lying around, so I hooked it up to get the "totally TB" line, and noticed the sound got worse. high cutoff, dull sound. that got me AB testing a little, and I didnt notice a differnece between one or two buffered pedals, I did notice a HUGE tone degrading when I put all my pedals in line (8 or so, at the time). So anyway I figured I wasn't going to bother with TB boxes after all. that was some years ago though, never tried again.
WR
— Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."
https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 08:47 AM
I wish I had a pedal army. Unfortunately I try to spend wisely and my pay and amount of hours I work do not allow me to get the pedals that I may want. I don't really want to buy crummy pedals. The only crummy one I want is the DL4. The reverse delay/echo is awesome. I've heard nothing good about their reliability. I heard about one guy who bought 4 to go on tour with because he knew he wouldn't be coming back with 3 of them.
Which is going to suck tone more, a complex pedal with high quality parts or a simple pedal with inferior parts. Complexity refers to the circuit.
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PolloGuitar
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 5098
San Francisco
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 11:43 AM
I don't know if this is related, but I switched all the cables in my pedal board over to George L's, and use a George L's lead chord from my guitar to my efx box. I always thought it was a myth, but it <I>really</I> improved the sound. Also, as Dave suggested, I took my Boss tuner out of the direct signal path (by using the passive splitter in my volume pedal), which is great because the tuner is on all the time, and I can tune in the middle of a song.
--fd
— Buy Speed of Dark @ Bandcamp
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dp
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 3546
mojave desert, california
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 12:56 PM
^ i agree with ferenc/ pollo above...i use the George L cords...very good stuff!
-dp
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PolloGuitar
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 5098
San Francisco
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 01:02 PM
Just for S&Gs, here is my effects board. I got the idea for the layout from LavaRatBill, but his is much sexier machined metal. Mine is just wood, wire and cable ties. I use two Line 6 Echo Parks (both with TBS), the overdrive is an ancient Fulltone (TBS again), and the Phaser is a cheapo Boss. 
The echos are close enough together so that I can turn one off while turning the other on.
What's yours look like?
--fd
— Buy Speed of Dark @ Bandcamp
Buy Spin the Bottle @ Bandcamp
My Blog- Euro Tour Blog
Pool Boys on Spotify
INSTAGRAM
Frankie & The Pool Boys on FB
Pollo Del Mar on FB
DJ Frankie Pool Boy on North Sea Surf Radio
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eddiekatcher
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2778
Atlanta, GA
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 01:18 PM
Holy Moly! Thats' WAY too many knobs for an old dude. I tune my guitar, then plug in to a Guya tone mini echo (which sits on top of my amp for easy tweaking) then straight down and back through the tank using a double cord 3' long. No muss, no fuss, big fat Jazzmaster sound.
I need to be thinking about trying to play, not which button to mash next. I have trouble fiddling with the pickup selector and playing. Come to think about it, I can't rub my stomach and pat my head at the same time either. So just why is it I'm still at this?
Oh yeah, I don't buy expensive cables anymore either, I've never met one I couldn't trash. ed
— Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?
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IronMaiden
Joined: Nov 02, 2006
Posts: 564
Virginia Beach
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 01:31 PM
So whats the verdict?
Is it worth getting lets say, a keelley modded true bypass ibanez ts808 w/ the OG spec chip (or whatever)for $250, or a non-true BP for $180?
My rythm guitarsist just got the ts808 reissue and that thing is sweet. we cant hear the difference when its plugged in vs not plugged in.
I think you guys are saying 1-2 non true BP pedals are fine right?
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WR
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3832
netherlands
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 03:39 PM
PolloGuitar
What's yours look like?
--fd
no GL cables...
IronMaiden, I _think _ it boils down to this: TB is better then buffered, if you use long cables, then a fancy clip-on-belt preamp is best to compensate signal degradation BUT a cheap alternative to a fancy preamp is a decent buffered pedal. that's how I understand it. In the end, though, only your ears can be the judge.
— Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."
https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/
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PolloGuitar
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 5098
San Francisco
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 04:51 PM
WR
...
Wannes, what is the signal path?
That is a great looking set up!
--fd
— Buy Speed of Dark @ Bandcamp
Buy Spin the Bottle @ Bandcamp
My Blog- Euro Tour Blog
Pool Boys on Spotify
INSTAGRAM
Frankie & The Pool Boys on FB
Pollo Del Mar on FB
DJ Frankie Pool Boy on North Sea Surf Radio
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SurfBandBill
Joined: Mar 15, 2006
Posts: 1487
San Francisco
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 05:02 PM
I think Ferenc was a little generous in hyping up my pedal board. The only real difference is I have a small plate of thin sheet metal which I drilled so that I can screw the pedals directly onto that through the bottom of the pedals. Then I screw the whole piece of sheet metal into the box. I did it that way so that I could just pull the pedals on the sheet metal out without having to worry about cutting cable ties, or having to undo any of the rubberized covering I have going on there.
No GL cables for me, I just use the cheapo Livewires style.
~B~
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WR
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 3832
netherlands
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 05:24 PM
PolloGuitar
WR
...
Wannes, what is the signal path?
That is a great looking set up!
--fd
thanks!
guitar goes into the homecooked TB AB box, which switches to the tuner, signal path goes to soulbender fuzz, then the creamtone overdrive, then the Korg delay and the CM tremolo. then it goes back to the ab box, from where there's an out. (I did it this way cause it allowed for a small box with no holes in teh side: there's a lid on it so it's a closed box)
The creamtone and the soulbender are TB, the tremolo and delay aren't. I admit I never checked this particular set-up for tone sucking though.
not sure if you can see it in the pic, but the box is "tilted", one inch high on the front where the pedals are, 3 inch on the back. lid is the other way around of course. all is attached with velcro. the soulbender has i's own adapter which sits under the tuner.
— Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."
https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/
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SlacktoneDave
Joined: Jul 01, 2006
Posts: 657
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Posted on Mar 19 2007 10:35 PM
To answer WR: I don't use the guitar strap pre-amp box when I use a Rangemaster. I only use the the RM for rock stuff. Low impedance buffer does not sound, or work well with that type of device. ie: Germainium, transistor fuzz, or treble booster. This is probably why I've been able to buy cool fx like that on ebay, cheap. People don't like the sound when they put the wrong thing in front of them. Like a Boss box, for example.
regarding a Tubescreamer with true bypass: If you have a setup that includes a Keeley Java Boost, you might not want the buffered output of the Tubescreamer{effect off} going into the input of the Java Boost. Or, the output of the Java Boost going into the buffered Tubescreamer input. Do you follow me?
By the way, my little preamp thing works fine going into a Tube Screamer. {I have two originals}The TS has an ic, which does not sound wierd when you hit it with a low imp. boost.
Sometimes, true bypass is too extreme a tone shift between off/on. a long time ago, I put in an expensive silent relay true bypass, w/ light in a solid state Echoplex. The off/on tone difference was too extreme, so I just had it wired for echo "On" light. ~ dave
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Lemurstrat
Joined: Apr 11, 2009
Posts: 10
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Posted on Apr 14 2009 07:30 AM
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SlacktoneDave
Joined: Jul 01, 2006
Posts: 657
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Posted on Apr 14 2009 10:16 AM
to answer: ".. dave, you use some sort of sophisticated preamp right? does that interact with a fuzzbox? is the sound simply better then with a pedal-buffer, or are there other advantages?
admittedly, Im not very anal about these things. I have a germanium fuzz which is first in line,..."
I do not use the buffer box when doing rock stuff using Rangemasters, Fuzzrite, etc. And, for recording now, I don't use it for the surf sound because I now use a cable from Evidence Audio that rocks my world.
~ dave
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DeadRanchHands
Joined: Apr 15, 2008
Posts: 1281
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Posted on Apr 14 2009 11:23 AM
I've never much cared either way, but supposedly having at least one buffered bypass pedal at the end of a chain of TB pedals is beneficial.
— http://www.reverbnation.com/thedeadranchhands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZEW74mHjQk
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davidphantomatic
Joined: Oct 12, 2008
Posts: 580
San Antone, TX
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Posted on Apr 14 2009 12:11 PM
UmaFloresta
I've never much cared either way, but supposedly having at least one buffered bypass pedal at the end of a chain of TB pedals is beneficial.
Well that all depends on how long your cables are and how many pedals you have.
If you only have 2 pedals and you used 2-10' cables and a 6" patch cable, it's not gonna make a huge difference cause at 20'6" you're not losing any signal.
Now if you're using 6 pedals, 5-6" patch cables and 2-20' cables, then yeah, it's probably a good idea to have at least one buffered pedal to push your signal back up.
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DeadRanchHands
Joined: Apr 15, 2008
Posts: 1281
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Posted on Apr 14 2009 12:17 PM
davidj
UmaFloresta
I've never much cared either way, but supposedly having at least one buffered bypass pedal at the end of a chain of TB pedals is beneficial.
Well that all depends on how long your cables are and how many pedals you have.
If you only have 2 pedals and you used 2-10' cables and a 6" patch cable, it's not gonna make a huge difference cause at 20'6" you're not losing any signal.
Now if you're using 6 pedals, 5-6" patch cables and 2-20' cables, then yeah, it's probably a good idea to have at least one buffered pedal to push your signal back up.
That's my understanding as well. And that's exactly what I have, but not on purpose. It just worked out that way.
— http://www.reverbnation.com/thedeadranchhands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZEW74mHjQk
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Stormtiger
Joined: Dec 12, 2006
Posts: 2687
Ventura, CA
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Posted on Apr 14 2009 12:48 PM
SlacktoneDave
I do not use the buffer box when doing rock stuff using Rangemasters, Fuzzrite, etc. And, for recording now, I don't use it for the surf sound because I now use a cable from Evidence Audio that rocks my world.
~ dave
Wow, $99 for a cable. Must be a good cable. I want one.
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