tone_death
Joined: Jan 30, 2013
Posts: 4
Columbus, Ohio
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 10:26 AM
Hi all,
I play in a five-piece spook 'n surf band and am having trouble with my guitar getting lost in the mix when playing live with a reverb tank. I'm finding that my cavernous squall just can't compete with drums, a bass, an organ and a rhythm guitar. I've tried dialing down the 'verb a bit and cranking my amp but that hasn't quite solved the problem. And boosting the high-end can get painfully shrill while the lower strings still get lost.
Anyone have advice for achieving a better sound balance and cutting thru the mix?
If it helps, I play a Fender Strat with D'addario 10-56 hybrids thru a Fender '63 reissue reverb tank (Mix 4, Dwell 5, Tone 5), an old NeXt compressor and a Bassman 10.
Thanks,
Matt
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killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 10:37 AM
We had this same problem for a long time. Much of it was remedied when we lost our rhythm player. Beyond that, getting the proper amp made a world of difference.
One key might be to make sure that your rhythm player isn't drenched in nearly as much reverb.
— THE KBK ... This is the last known signal. We offer Sanctuary.
www.thekbk.com
http://www.deepeddy.net/artists/thekbk/
www.reverbnation.com/thekbk
www.facebook.com/thekbkal
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psychonaut
Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 1304
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 10:46 AM
Crank the mids and loose the compressor ( a good tube amp should provide more than enough compression).
Also, I don't think the Bassman 10 makes a good guitar amp, it's a much different amp to blackface, blonde, and tweed bassmans. Like most silverface Fenders, they did things to the circuit that makes them sound dull and lifeless compared to blackface, and blondes (and browns too!).
Also maybe get your rhythm guitar player to work with you on getting a complimentary sound that won't compete with yours.
As far as the organ goes, a more scooped sound makes it sit better in the mix and doesn't compete with mid-rangey guitars, which is where they normally sit.
I know alot of people like a scooped guitar sound, but I find that in a band context, a scooped guitar usually disapears in a mix.
What is your band?
— https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com
Last edited: Mar 20, 2013 10:47:33
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SanchoPansen
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 12:23 PM
Though the Bassman 10 might not be the perfect amp, it should have enough power to cut through the mix. I suspect the compressor to be thinning out the signal (+1 to psychonaut). I'd try to leave it out of the chain at first.
Secondly my advise after more than 10 years of playing with an organ in a surf band: Tell your organ player NOT TO PLAY the whole chords. Organ players tend to play the whole chords, to make the sound richer/fuller. But they overlay all of your frequencies. I had a hard time and it also took long to get the organ player to listen to the guitar and play less chords and more single notes...or 'power chords'...just my 2 cents, YMMV
— The Hicadoolas
Last edited: Mar 20, 2013 12:24:35
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eddiekatcher
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2778
Atlanta, GA
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 12:39 PM
Turn down the reverb. I ought to get a lot of flack around here about that comment, but it does work. Unless your band mates are serious about your being "out front in the mix" and if your drummer can't resist the cymbals, which are in the reverb's frequency range, that's what I do. I also use big strings, a bit of echo, and a 15" speaker.
Take no prisoners.
A big blonde amp helps as well.
Ed
— Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?
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killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 12:49 PM
SanchoPansen wrote:
Though the Bassman 10 might not be the perfect amp, it should have enough power to cut through the mix. I suspect the compressor to be thinning out the signal (+1 to psychonaut). I'd try to leave it out of the chain at first.
Secondly my advise after more than 10 years of playing with an organ in a surf band: Tell your organ player NOT TO PLAY the whole chords. Organ players tend to play the whole chords, to make the sound richer/fuller. But they overlay all of your frequencies. I had a hard time and it also took long to get the organ player to listen to the guitar and play less chords and more single notes...or 'power chords'...just my 2 cents, YMMV
The organ really can be an issue, no doubt. Our organ player is about to add a limiter to his signal, as he hits some 5-7 note chords at times that really up his volume to an uncomfortable level. Then again, he is using a Korg keyboard. I am not sure if the old analog keys react the same way.
— THE KBK ... This is the last known signal. We offer Sanctuary.
www.thekbk.com
http://www.deepeddy.net/artists/thekbk/
www.reverbnation.com/thekbk
www.facebook.com/thekbkal
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SanchoPansen
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 01:07 PM
You are totally right. And especially the 5-7 note chords will kill all guitar frequencies and push them back in the mix. I don't think there's a difference between digital or analog keyboards/organs. A limiter might help, but like ed wrote, you guys should really talk about this issue and get things sorted...boy, oh boy, that reminds me of long gone days. Painful if everybody wants to be the 'frontman'...
— The Hicadoolas
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psychonaut
Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 1304
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 01:08 PM
killbabykill34 wrote:
SanchoPansen wrote:
Though the Bassman 10 might not be the perfect amp, it should have enough power to cut through the mix. I suspect the compressor to be thinning out the signal (+1 to psychonaut). I'd try to leave it out of the chain at first.
Secondly my advise after more than 10 years of playing with an organ in a surf band: Tell your organ player NOT TO PLAY the whole chords. Organ players tend to play the whole chords, to make the sound richer/fuller. But they overlay all of your frequencies. I had a hard time and it also took long to get the organ player to listen to the guitar and play less chords and more single notes...or 'power chords'...just my 2 cents, YMMV
The organ really can be an issue, no doubt. Our organ player is about to add a limiter to his signal, as he hits some 5-7 note chords at times that really up his volume to an uncomfortable level. Then again, he is using a Korg keyboard. I am not sure if the old analog keys react the same way.
Old combo organs can be a bit unbalanced volume wise across the keys.
I agree that the organist should avoid anything more than root/3rd/5th chords, unless there really needs to be a 7th or 9th, etc...
The organ really eats up a lot of sonic space, so the less it's doing, the better.
— https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com
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tone_death
Joined: Jan 30, 2013
Posts: 4
Columbus, Ohio
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 01:57 PM
Thanks guys, that's is a heap of good advice. I'll definitely pass on the info to the organ player...who um, hopefully won't mind not playin' so fancy.
The two guitars has been tricky 'cause they're both Strats with single coils so they sort of eat each other. We've been trying to balance things by pushing the rhythm guitar toward the low end and mine towards the high. I've only ever played in three-piece bands before so this whole balancing-five-instruments thing has been kind of an awkward process. Oh well, I'm sure we'll surfive. 
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Surfgitar
Joined: Mar 16, 2007
Posts: 1342
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 02:28 PM
I read an interview once by Los Straitjackets that discussed the importance of self-modulation by each of the band memebers. You should have practice sessions where everyone works on the various dynamics within each song. As SanchoPansen noted, "painful if everybody wants to be the 'frontman'..."
— CUTBACK
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caddady
Joined: Feb 14, 2010
Posts: 802
N.E. Ohio
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 02:41 PM
Less can be more.
And what is the band name??
— http://www.reverbnation.com/thegreasemonkeyz
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norcalhodad
Joined: May 25, 2006
Posts: 537
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 03:45 PM
Surfgitar wrote:
You should have practice sessions where everyone works on the various dynamics within each song.
Yeah, bro. Dynamics. Allow space for the other guy. If there is organ even a rhythm guitar player doesn't need to play full chords. Triads. Double stops. Palm muted reverbed single notes. Having same guitars, Strat's in this case, shouldn't matter as the Straitjackets always matched. Dynamics.
—  > 
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tone_death
Joined: Jan 30, 2013
Posts: 4
Columbus, Ohio
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 07:51 PM
caddady wrote:
And what is the band name??
The band is called Mummula (like a dracula/mummy-type creature... a Mummula). We're gonna be recording a few songs later this month so I'll be sure to post 'em.
Btw, I noticed The Grease Monkeys are based in NE Ohio. Do you guys ever come to Columbus?
Last edited: Mar 20, 2013 19:56:45
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Ron-Rhoades
Joined: Aug 19, 2006
Posts: 958
Kekaha, Kauai, Hawaii
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 09:03 PM
Dynamics......
The TO's have the same problem when i'm playing lead. Our other guitarist has no dynamics....you get the same hi volume whether he's playing lead or rhythm and there's no finesse on his part.
When he's playing lead i'm all over the place with my volume, reverb settings, palm mutting (which he doesn't ever do),open chords blah blah blah.
Good luck.
— The TakeOffs
"Kauai's Only All-Instrumental Surf Band"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-TakeOffs/312866840587
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Noel
Joined: Mar 15, 2011
Posts: 8528
Back in Piitsburgh, Pennsylvania, where I grew up.
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Posted on Mar 20 2013 09:36 PM
And yet the TO's sound so GREAT!
— This is Noel. Reverb's at maximum an' I'm givin' 'er all she's got.
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Ron-Rhoades
Joined: Aug 19, 2006
Posts: 958
Kekaha, Kauai, Hawaii
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Posted on Mar 21 2013 12:20 AM
Thanks Noel.
— The TakeOffs
"Kauai's Only All-Instrumental Surf Band"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-TakeOffs/312866840587
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casey
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 521
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Posted on Mar 21 2013 03:02 AM
Volume. If you are not the lead instrument in a song you should turn down enough so that whoever has the lead is out front, sound-wise. It can be a constant battle if everyone in the band doesn't know and practice this. Especially important for keyboards as it's so easy for them to cover up the guitars. This is probably more difficult to achieve in "democratic" bands that don't have a designated bandleader. As the leader of our band, I'll ask someone to turn down when necessary in order to achieve a good sound mix. If they can't or won't learn how to do this then they may not work out with us. I have seen and listened to countless bands where everyone was playing great individually but the overall sound was terrible because everybody was just playing too loud and competing with rather than complementing the lead instrument (or vocals).
Last edited: Mar 21, 2013 06:10:08
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Kawentzmann
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 1062
Berlin, Germany
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Posted on Mar 21 2013 04:00 AM
What Casey says. It’s about levels mostly. There’s always just one (1) moneymaker. Then an assistant is nice, like Robin to Bat-Man.
Like Robin’s custom has a different color, so should the tone of your rhythm player: if you have sustain, he should have attack, if you have a long scale, he should have a short scale, if you use a mahagony body he should have alder. You get it, go for contrast.
You can use different kinds of amps and reverb settings, or better just allow one reverbed instrument at a time (with respect to the problem at hand).
As others said, what each player is actually playing should be of a different, contrasting nature as well.
The lead should have much more level than the rest, in order to allow for expressive, dynamic peaks, which you don’t want so much from supporting instruments. So use your volume knob. Turn it down three numbers (varies with pot resistence) for the regular level, and turn it up fully when going for climaxing eruptions. Or when your band fellows get all temperamental all of a sudden.
— The Exotic Guitar of Kahuna Kawentzmann
You can get the boy out of the Keynes era, but you can’t get the Keynes era out of the boy.
Last edited: Mar 21, 2013 04:04:32
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Dane_Brammage
Joined: Jun 14, 2006
Posts: 203
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Posted on Mar 21 2013 05:45 AM
psychonaut wrote:
I agree that the organist should avoid anything more than root/3rd/5th chords, unless there really needs to be a 7th or 9th, etc...
The organ really eats up a lot of sonic space, so the less it's doing, the better.
Conversely, with the bass and rhythm guitar already all over the root/3rd/5th, the organist might do well to avoid those notes, especially in the lower registers. You don't need four E notes in four different octaves all played simultaneously.
Think of a big band with horns: every instrument plays a distinct part and is responsible for part of the harmony. It's less chaotic but also leaves less room for everybody to do their own thing, which some people won't be able to tolerate.
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psychonaut
Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 1304
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Posted on Mar 21 2013 07:24 AM
Dane_Brammage wrote:
psychonaut wrote:
I agree that the organist should avoid anything more than root/3rd/5th chords, unless there really needs to be a 7th or 9th, etc...
The organ really eats up a lot of sonic space, so the less it's doing, the better.
Conversely, with the bass and rhythm guitar already all over the root/3rd/5th, the organist might do well to avoid those notes, especially in the lower registers. You don't need four E notes in four different octaves all played simultaneously.
Think of a big band with horns: every instrument plays a distinct part and is responsible for part of the harmony. It's less chaotic but also leaves less room for everybody to do their own thing, which some people won't be able to tolerate.
Very true. The organist would also do well to play inversions, which would clear up even more space.
— https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com
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