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January Birthdays
A little "modal" theory
Joined: Jan 16, 2010 Posts: 214 Somerset, England |
Posted on Jan 25 2013 02:13 PM
I'm sure I am not the only one here who plays other styles than surf. Found a free backing track, a jazzy sounding thing in Am. As Im learning modes I'm interested to know WHY E minor pentatonic sounds good over the track. A dorian is perfect but when you move into E minor pent it gives the whole thing a big lift. I do understand some stuff on modes but can't get my head around this yet. Is there some sort of rule that can be applied irrespective of the key? Nigel |
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Joined: Oct 23, 2007 Posts: 385 Boca Raton, Florida 
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Posted on Jan 25 2013 03:09 PM
What is the chord progression of the backing track? That would be your clue. If you are playing E minor pent over all of the changes, then the Em pent scale fits all the other chords too-- |
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Joined: Jan 16, 2010 Posts: 214 Somerset, England |
Posted on Jan 25 2013 03:22 PM
In no particular order, its Am7, Bm7,C maj7 and E7#9. Is that a modal progression? E min pent does work over the whole piece but its the contrast in "feel" when you switch from dorian to minor pent. |
Joined: Nov 22, 2012 Posts: 71 Kitchener, ON 
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Posted on Jan 25 2013 03:41 PM
That E7 is throwing me off a bit (I'd expect it to be Em7, since at a glance I'd say the key was G and that's why A Dorian and Em pent both work. The notes are common to both. A Dorian (A B C D E F# G) is the second mode in the key of G, where Em pent (E G A B D) could fit in where E Aeolian (E F# G A B C D) would be. The change in "feel" comes from your choices of phrasing and how you resolve the leads. Hope that helps, if only a little! —The Aquamaniacs on ReverbNation |
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Joined: Dec 29, 2012 Posts: 32 Lansing, Michigan
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Posted on Jan 25 2013 03:51 PM
The second in an Em pentatonic scale is the #9 in an E7#9. From another angle, a sharp ninth is a sharp second in a seven-tone scale, which is a flat (minor) third. Your E7#9 is blending major and minor tones, and the Em pentatonic helps zero in on the minor ones. What throws me is the Cmaj7, but a quick look pins it as an inversion of an Am9. That means you are playing E, A, and B in minor voicings with sevenths or ninths. You are (largely) playing in E minor. Last edited: Jan 25, 2013 15:57:43 |
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Joined: Jan 16, 2010 Posts: 214 Somerset, England |
Posted on Jan 25 2013 04:15 PM
Ah, yes, it does say G major (Eminor) but the A dorian is a suggested scale. And yes, you are right, the phrasing changes completely when you switch from a jazzy (ish) sounding dorian to the minor pentatonic. Had not spotted that, thanks. |
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Joined: Nov 22, 2012 Posts: 71 Kitchener, ON
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Posted on Jan 25 2013 05:28 PM
Quite true, but the E7#9 has a G# in it (major third) so I was thrown off by that chord. Isn't theory fun? VerboSaurusRex wrote: — The Aquamaniacs on ReverbNation |
Joined: Jan 23, 2012 Posts: 282 Budapest 
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Posted on Jan 25 2013 06:01 PM
Am7 (9) = a c e g h I think the e minor pent. has the color tones of the main chords 7,9 etc.. thats why we hear this 'natural mood' —original compositions (low-level demo stuff /out of tune, etc) myStuff not my best, but i don't like to be in a musician community without anything to show |
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Joined: Jan 16, 2010 Posts: 214 Somerset, England |
Posted on Jan 26 2013 05:41 AM
I found this chart which should help. It shows the presence of the 111 maj 7 and hence Cmaj7. http://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=6023 Togergo, forgive me if im overlooking something but I dont understand your explanation due to the inclusion of the note "h" !! I thought it might be a typo but you put it in several times. Cheers Last edited: Jan 26, 2013 05:42:03 |
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Joined: Jan 16, 2010 Posts: 214 Somerset, England |
Posted on Jan 26 2013 05:47 AM
Jay77, it was toungue in cheek perhaps on your part but I do find theory fun. The lead lines in our Surf instros don't really offer too much of a challenge to either replicate or indeed compose but the hard bit is the tone, that is the elusive aspect of this music imho whereas a deviation to other aspects such as modes and so on does offer quite a big challenge and is very satisfying when the penny finaly drops. Even at the age of 44 my pennies are still dropping!!! |
Joined: Dec 08, 2007 Posts: 1303
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Posted on Jan 26 2013 07:55 AM
When you get to the E7#9 chord, play a G# diminished scale (G# B D F). https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger |
Joined: Jan 18, 2010 Posts: 672 Delaware 
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Posted on Jan 26 2013 09:53 AM
Theory is fun and if you work hard enough at it you can use it in all sorts of places. I learned at the piano, not a bad idea as you see how chords and scales overlap and relate to each other. On guitar... I'm lost but trying. |
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Joined: Nov 22, 2012 Posts: 71 Kitchener, ON
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Posted on Jan 26 2013 10:12 AM
I too find it very interesting, and incredibly helpful. I lost my job years back and finally taught myself the things I never did over the years, and my playing (and overall knowledge/understanding) got better by leaps and bounds. I'm a firm believer now that every guitarist should have a basic and fundamental grasp of the theory behind their playing. It sure comes in handy! Surfocaster wrote: — The Aquamaniacs on ReverbNation |
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Joined: Nov 22, 2012 Posts: 71 Kitchener, ON
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Posted on Jan 26 2013 10:15 AM
Theory is theory, so it should all apply to your guitar playing. The trick is the practical aspects of things - as in, where to play on the fretboard. I found a great exercise was to learn the modes of the major scale, in their root position moving up the neck. you'll see the notes start to jump out at you more often. It really helps organize the fretboard for you, so when it comes time to play notes/scales, you know where to go. bamboozer wrote: — The Aquamaniacs on ReverbNation |
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Joined: Jan 23, 2012 Posts: 282 Budapest
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Posted on Jan 26 2013 02:55 PM
Surfocaster wrote:
ugh sorry, in hungary, H is the name of the B, and B is the name of Bb. I forgot where I was original compositions (low-level demo stuff /out of tune, etc) myStuff not my best, but i don't like to be in a musician community without anything to show |
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Joined: Jan 23, 2012 Posts: 282 Budapest
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Posted on Jan 26 2013 03:22 PM
Anyway, there's a concept (in jazz, or modern rock) where you use the pentatonic scales in a different way. The point is that a jazz chord is 5 tones (usually) - You know, CMaj7(c-e-g-b), or CMaj9(c-e-g-b-d) is not too different (most of the times) and in CMaj9 there is e,g,b,d 4 notes from the 5!! - and the 5th (a) is not bad if Cmaj7 a landing chord (sorry my english isn't enough here) - so, e minor pentatonic is good in Cmaj7, and can you find a little bit different ways when you improvise. Am7 (Am9) - the same. And what about B minor pent? It's okay too! Little bit wierd, modern jazz feeling, but, works. So, if you have a long C or Am, you can use A minor pentatonic (same as C major pent), E minor p, and B minor pent. 3 scales, for one chord, and you can use them free, and you can find funny solutions in the chord progressions. For example, i had a song, few years ago. Am, D7, BbMaj7, A, G, Bb7 And what did I find? Am (BminorPent) D7 (AminorPent) BbMaj(GminorP) G(F#minorPent) Bb7(FminorPent - with D instead of Eb) - so I can play the same form going down, and down on the neck - It's a good example for that Modern jazz players really like this stuff, I think 'Pentatonic substitution' is the name of this solution. But, be careful, dont play blues pentaton licks! :)) —original compositions (low-level demo stuff /out of tune, etc) myStuff not my best, but i don't like to be in a musician community without anything to show |
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Joined: Jan 23, 2012 Posts: 282 Budapest
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Posted on Jan 26 2013 04:04 PM
I use this concept in instro sometimes, it works, but the music loses it's original oldschool feeling. I can show you some sample, if you're interested in —original compositions (low-level demo stuff /out of tune, etc) myStuff not my best, but i don't like to be in a musician community without anything to show Last edited: Jan 26, 2013 16:04:33 |
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