raito
Joined: Oct 16, 2008
Posts: 552
Madison, WI
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 10:09 AM
To get away from the various gear threads, and partially to write a rebuttal to many of the comments there, and to take up Brian on the idea of starting a thread on something interersting for a change, I'm writing this to partly put down in electrons my thoughts on the idea of musical genres.
Q: What defines a genre?
A: A musical genre is defined by a set of conventions, whether those conventions be based on music theory, orchestration, tone, subject matter, names of pieces, etc., etc., etc.
HOWEVER, genre is not objective, it is subjective. In large part, the listener is the one who puts a particular performance into a genre.
Also, for a genre to be 'healthy', its set of conventions must be large enough that new pieces can be written continuously.
This is because not all performances that fall within a genre include all the conventions of the genre. If the set of conventions is that small, the genre will not survive. There would be only do many pieces that could be written before the pieces begin to all sound the same.
A listener fits a performance into a genre based on his perception of the number and relative subjective strength of the performance's conventions. Thus, two lsiteners may place the same performance into different genres. And some performances pull from enough different genres that putting them into a single genre is difficult.
It is also true that several genres may use a particular convention. This is partly why genre is subjective. Using a partiular convention never positively identifies a genre. In this way, genres overlap.
If a performance uses a particular convention, it edges closer to being in that genre. If not, it edges away. It's a sort of weighted sum of the conventions that puts a performance into a genre. The catch is that we all have our own weighting systems.
For myself, I simply do not believe that any single convention is so central to a genre that a performance cannot be of that genre without it (though those guys who do ragas and flamenco probably disagree with that).
So for me it is entirely possible to have surf music that does not have reverb. Or glissando. Or tremolo picking. Or the second statement of the theme a fourth up. Or guitars. Or a 4/4 beat. Or hawaiian shirts. Or Merrell Frankenhauser. 
Likewise, I can inagine surf performances with bassoons, or in waltz time, or reverse-gated-monster-80's-drums, or pedal steel. Still have trouble with old Merrell, though.
So, in addition to other comments, try to think of surf performances that are lacking conventions that are normally thought of as central to surf. Then figure out which other conventions bring it back to the genre.
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JStern
Joined: Mar 15, 2012
Posts: 105
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 10:31 AM
I'll bite.
Here is a great tune. Surf or not, you be the judge. IMHO, there really are only two types of music: Good and Bad.
The Pixies - Cecilia Ann
Why it IS surflike:
- Melodic Motifs using minor scale very similar to many surf songs.
- Heavy reverb and tremolo on the main melody
- Tune is all instrumental, and short in length.
Why it IS NOT surflike:
- Drums mixed too heavy, especially super reverbed up low pitched snare drum
- The Pixies were not an instrumental band, and have very few instrumental songs.
- The tempo is a bit slow for the style of the melody. Speed the tempo up 20 beats, and mix up the beat a little, you've got yourself a "surf" song.
— The Techtonics reverb nation page
Soundcloud page
Last edited: Jun 12, 2012 10:32:36
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Las_Barracudas
Joined: Apr 24, 2011
Posts: 1087
Surf City, NC
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 10:55 AM
Good song, but I like the original a bit better (Surftones).
— METEOR IV on reverbnation
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killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 10:56 AM
Genre is a strange subject. We touched on it a few weeks ago in another thread. I am starting to believe that, for the most part, genre is dictated both by the listener or the marketing team behind the product, rather than by the artist writing and performing it.
The best example I can give is the 'grunge' surge of the early 90's. To those of us who were playing music or already into most of these artists before they experienced major label success, these were simply punk bands. At best we called them 'college rock', which was just a nice blanket term. Anyway, I will stick with the 'punk' term. The term 'grunge' was not a part of anyones vocabulary that was into underground punk music at the time. I am sure the term can be traced back to a media article or something that attempted to describe the seemingly blooming new scene. It caught on though, and the term 'punk', as it pertains to the masses, was rarely ever used again in reference to these bands(Nirvana, Sonic Youth, Dinosaur Jr, etc.)....
I do have a theory on why this was done within the media. In the early 1990's 'punk' still have a very negative image attached to it, through a previous decade of the only 'punk' you saw being the burglar, murderer, druggy, etc. on the Cop Drama of the night. Therefore something much more easily digestable was needed in order to sell this music to the masses.
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Stormtiger
Joined: Dec 12, 2006
Posts: 2687
Ventura, CA
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 10:58 AM
Because it is a cover of a surf tune?
When I saw Franck Black (with Joey Santiago) they opened with Rumble.
JStern wrote:
The Pixies - Cecilia Ann
Why it IS surflike:
- Melodic Motifs using minor scale very similar to many surf songs.
- Heavy reverb and tremolo on the main melody
- Tune is all instrumental, and short in length.
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mom_surfing
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 5321
the outer banks of north carolina
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:00 AM
Las_Barracudas wrote:
Good song, but I like the original a bit better (Surftones). the pixies version was my introduction to this tune which took me back to the surftones. i also like what the bambi molesters did with it.
— www.surfintheeye.com
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JStern
Joined: Mar 15, 2012
Posts: 105
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:01 AM
Damn, I never realized that song was a cover! You learn something new every day.
How about the original though? I just listened to it, and there is not a whole ton of reverb there. Definitely sounds like onboard reverb to me. But it definitely is surf, despite the dryer sound.
— The Techtonics reverb nation page
Soundcloud page
Last edited: Jun 12, 2012 11:04:02
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mom_surfing
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 5321
the outer banks of north carolina
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:01 AM
mom_surfing wrote:
Las_Barracudas wrote:
Good song, but I like the original a bit better (Surftones ).
the pixies version was my introduction to this tune which took me back to the surftones. i also like what the bambi molesters did with it.
— www.surfintheeye.com
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JONPAUL
Joined: Apr 29, 2010
Posts: 2472
Venice, CA
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:17 AM
The whole Cecilia Ann story is quite interesting. HERE'S the main SG101 discussion again for those that may not have seen it. Now go buy Surf Legends and Rumors (both versions)!
— Insect Surfers
The Tikiyaki Orchestra
The Scimitars
Lords Of Atlantis
Fiberglass Jungle - Surf Radio
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dp
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 3546
mojave desert, california
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:26 AM
Is this version of Cecilia Ann surf ?
Last edited: Jun 12, 2012 11:27:13
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SpaceFargo
Joined: Feb 18, 2010
Posts: 260
Lake Forest, CA
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:26 AM
killbabykill34 wrote:
'grunge'
I was just a kid when grunge was a thing but I never quite understood why Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and Alice in Chains were lumped together in one genre despite sounding nothing alike. Bleach sounded more Melvins and Facelift sounded like Dr. Feelgood played at half speed. Was grunge supposed to be heavy alt-rock? Was it mopey arena rock? Does anybody actually know? Did they?
Also I once noticed that Nirvana's "Breed" sounds similar to Link Wray's "Run Chicken Run". Thought that was amusing.
— Hot Summer Comes Again!
Let's Go Beach! Let's Go Beach!
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dp
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 3546
mojave desert, california
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:29 AM
SpaceFargo wrote:
killbabykill34 wrote:
'grunge'
I was just a kid when grunge was a thing but I never quite understood why Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and Alice in Chains were lumped together in one genre despite sounding nothing alike. Bleach sounded more Melvins and Facelift sounded like Dr. Feelgood played at half speed. Was grunge supposed to be heavy alt-rock? Was it mopey arena rock? Does anybody actually know? Did they?
Also I once noticed that Nirvana's "Breed" sounds similar to Link Wray's "Run Chicken Run". Thought that was amusing.
I always thought "grunge" was the commercial phase of "punk"...
you know, "grunge" was the soundtrack for Hot Topic and various skater and BMX and dirt bike videos... sort of went along with "POGS" and the whole "Hang Ten" revival ...
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killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:40 AM
DP, you pretty much have it right. Like I said, my personal belief is that 'Grunge' was a very safe umbrella to market the unmarketable at the time. Then it became a guaranteed head turner to throw a band under the non-existant genre moniker.
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:44 AM
I've posted something similar before, but I do not like the idea genres. I feel awkward pushing things into such categories. I am okay with being quite broad, but putting things into genres have probably hurt some bands more than it has done good. A music journalist pretty much decides whether somebody is "freak-folk", "emo-rock", "twee", "post-__" and this becomes the bands identity. This could be down to touring with another band, citing a band as an influence, or instrumentation. Almost nothing to do with the music itself it seems.
When asked about what genre a band I like is, I generally just shrug my shoulders and say "good music?". Now the good music part is completely my opinion and won't be good music to other people. Sort of like genres!
One of my biggest gripes is band who say "they(this band) sounds like (that band)". Generally it is pretty ridiculous, just a singer that sounds similar or an influence of the band even though the music has nothing in common. My friends are really into that, they are often completely off in my opinion. There is more to music than the immediate outward sound/appearance.
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killbabykill34
Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 3201
Jacksonville, AL
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:47 AM
SpaceFargo wrote:
killbabykill34 wrote:
'grunge'
I was just a kid when grunge was a thing but I never quite understood why Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and Alice in Chains were lumped together in one genre despite sounding nothing alike. Bleach sounded more Melvins and Facelift sounded like Dr. Feelgood played at half speed. Was grunge supposed to be heavy alt-rock? Was it mopey arena rock? Does anybody actually know? Did they?
Also I once noticed that Nirvana's "Breed" sounds similar to Link Wray's "Run Chicken Run". Thought that was amusing.
I am not going to try to find too much rhyme or reason to this. I will say this, Alice in Chains released Facelift a good while before the big 'grunge' boom. It was marketed heavily as a metal album, just as they were marketed as a metal band. It wasn't until the 'boom' that the marketing teams decided to repackage how they sold the band, in order to cash in. It was a wise decision.
— THE KBK ... This is the last known signal. We offer Sanctuary.
www.thekbk.com
http://www.deepeddy.net/artists/thekbk/
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tubeswell
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 1424
Wellington, NZ
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:47 AM
Genres = mental filing systems.
— He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Surf Daddies
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:49 AM
tubeswell wrote:
Genres = mental filing systems.
Genres = societal needs to fit square objects into round holes.
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tubeswell
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 1424
Wellington, NZ
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 11:53 AM
 yup - mental
— He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Surf Daddies
Last edited: Jun 12, 2012 12:20:45
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JONPAUL
Joined: Apr 29, 2010
Posts: 2472
Venice, CA
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 12:01 PM
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SanchoPansen
Joined: Jan 04, 2011
Posts: 1588
Berlin L-Berg
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Posted on Jun 12 2012 12:16 PM
I once read this somewhere and still think it's the best way to describe music in general: There are only 3 kinds of genres!
Classical Music...Bach, Beethoven, Haydn, etc.
Pop(ular) Music...the stuff most people listen to
Jazz Music...a genre on it's own.
It's like food. Classical music is like meat, Pop = vegetables and Jazz = Mushrooms, as it's not classical or popular. I think I'll stick to this for the rest of my life. And +1 to Jakes comment.
— The Hicadoolas
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