I didn't take the time to crop these down so viewer discretion is advised.
6G14-A in all it's glory...

http://gomezamps.com/Suferprofile.jpg

Last edited: Jan 30, 2007 13:37:11

kickthe_reverb_

diceophonic
1st wave surf bands (actualy 1st wave is from 1960-1967 it never died down till 67 and then new wave came out from 1977- 1995) in late 1960 the blonde/brownface piggyback amps were born, from 1961 to 1964 and 64's still had blonde but bared blackface panels circuit AA763-AA864 AA165, those early surf groups had to use blonde not becuase of the extra cash around or being rich but that's what was available at the time, Yes there were other amps around like Ampeg, Silvertone and other cheaper amps but those musicians wanted Fender and the sound as we do today, in the early 60s even the blackface amps cost the same as blonde the only difference was the tolex color and circuit scheme.

The blonde/brownface Showman and it's 6G14 circuit even killer and it's Vibrato circuit is just hair raising cool that's one thing I love about all brownface amps is it's unique vibrato circuit called "RC phase-shift oscillator"

Blackface Vibrato is killer too "neon-lamp/photoresistor" also known as the roach

Kyle I think you mis-understood me about the "having the money" phrase - I didn't mean that bands had a choice between blackface and brownface, I meant that not every band had money to afford Fender gear, but those who did had one choice and that was the brownface, because the blackface only came out in 64. Yes, the first wave lasted until 67, but 64-67 was the decline, because of the british invasion...most of the pioneers talk about the sudden loss of popularity in 64. I'm not knocking guys who play the blackface amps (or silverface for that matter), I'm just saying that if you're looking for THE surf amp, it's the 6G14 Showman. And if it has blonde tolex but blackface cosmetics, no presence control, etc, than that's not it. Still a great amp, a holy grail, but not the holiest...
I know that if I had the money I'd look for a Brownface, not a Blackface...right now I have to do with my "Blackfaced" 69 TR in a head cabinet. That's what I get for having 3 expensive hobbies.

Ran

I gotta go with Ran here regarding the first wave being pretty dead by '65 or '66. I think '67 is really pushing it. Bob Dalley talks about the Avengers VI being late to the table in '65 and how they missed out on playing with bands like the Showmen and the Lively Ones. I'd mark the Beatles appearance on Ed Sullivan for the first time as the death blow. Maybe it lingered on a bit longer in California, but as far as kids in the midwest, where surf was never really that big anyway was all but dead by '64.

My vote goes for the brownface Showman as "thy holiest" and that's purely based on lust. I don't care what kind of caps are in it either!

"as he stepped into the stealthy night air... little did he know the fire escape was not there"

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I think the best clean anyone is going to get is a Blackface Showman (forget about the color of the tolex) A Brownface Showman should, based on analysis of the circuit, break up sooner, especially through the Vibrato channel. That being said, the Brownface Showman should appear louder and fuller at a given setting compared to a Blackface Showman, all things being equal.

Given that, the sounds we hear on these recordings that are so, so nice are a combination of recording techniques and lower volumes that most of us can't use in a live situation. On the flip side of this, I think a Blackface amp is a better "live" amp for surf than a Brownface amp at a given volume level. The Brownface will distort earlier, leading to mushy bass and muffled treble.

I still want a Brownface Showman...

Matt Aqua

I think the best clean anyone is going to get is a Blackface Showman (forget about the color of the tolex) A Brownface Showman should, based on analysis of the circuit, break up sooner, especially through the Vibrato channel. That being said, the Brownface Showman should appear louder and fuller at a given setting compared to a Blackface Showman, all things being equal.

Well, I have one of each (a '61 Dual and a '65 Dual). The '65 is louder at a given volume setting, but the '61 sounds "better", at least to my ear. Both are very clean even at ear-melting volume levels.

I've been told that the blackface amps (not just the Showmans, but all of them) run at higher plate voltages, which is why they are louder at lower volume settings. However, Dick Dale mostly uses early brownface Dual Showman heads with presence controls, and anyone who has been to one of his live shows can testify that they are PLENTY loud and clean. You just have to turn the "V" knob a little further clockwise on the brownfaces.

Jack Booth
(aka WoodyJ)

The Mariners (1964-68, 1996-2005)
The Hula Hounds (1996-current)
The X-Rays (1997-2004)
The Surge! (2004, 2011-2012)
Various non-surf bands that actually made money (1978-1990)

BillAqua

kickthe_reverb_

diceophonic
1st wave surf bands (actualy 1st wave is from 1960-1967 it never died down till 67 and then new wave came out from 1977- 1995) in late 1960 the blonde/brownface piggyback amps were born, from 1961 to 1964 and 64's still had blonde but bared blackface panels circuit AA763-AA864 AA165, those early surf groups had to use blonde not becuase of the extra cash around or being rich but that's what was available at the time, Yes there were other amps around like Ampeg, Silvertone and other cheaper amps but those musicians wanted Fender and the sound as we do today, in the early 60s even the blackface amps cost the same as blonde the only difference was the tolex color and circuit scheme.

The blonde/brownface Showman and it's 6G14 circuit even killer and it's Vibrato circuit is just hair raising cool that's one thing I love about all brownface amps is it's unique vibrato circuit called "RC phase-shift oscillator"

Blackface Vibrato is killer too "neon-lamp/photoresistor" also known as the roach

Kyle I think you mis-understood me about the "having the money" phrase - I didn't mean that bands had a choice between blackface and brownface, I meant that not every band had money to afford Fender gear, but those who did had one choice and that was the brownface, because the blackface only came out in 64. Yes, the first wave lasted until 67, but 64-67 was the decline, because of the british invasion...most of the pioneers talk about the sudden loss of popularity in 64. I'm not knocking guys who play the blackface amps (or silverface for that matter), I'm just saying that if you're looking for THE surf amp, it's the 6G14 Showman. And if it has blonde tolex but blackface cosmetics, no presence control, etc, than that's not it. Still a great amp, a holy grail, but not the holiest...
I know that if I had the money I'd look for a Brownface, not a Blackface...right now I have to do with my "Blackfaced" 69 TR in a head cabinet. That's what I get for having 3 expensive hobbies.

Ran

I gotta go with Ran here regarding the first wave being pretty dead by '65 or '66. I think '67 is really pushing it. Bob Dalley talks about the Avengers VI being late to the table in '65 and how they missed out on playing with bands like the Showmen and the Lively Ones. I'd mark the Beatles appearance on Ed Sullivan for the first time as the death blow. Maybe it lingered on a bit longer in California, but as far as kids in the midwest, where surf was never really that big anyway was all but dead by '64.

My vote goes for the brownface Showman as "thy holiest" and that's purely based on lust. I don't care what kind of caps are in it either!

Bill you also have to keep in mind that yes surf might have faded by the time The Beatles step into the picture and surf music was not in the mainsteam anymore comercialy speaking so in many ways it was very much still alive underground and going and then the 2nd round Pulp fiction came and faded again but surf still kept on going and back to being underground again, and if you think about Bill for a moment today in the present it's still underground and not comercialy in the mainstream today being aired on some alternative radio station like LA's KROQ
and if we didn't have the net today we all would have no idea of how alive surf still is even if it's still underground being played in garage's, basements, living rooms, venues, shows all around the world we would all still have known of The Phantom surfer, The Ghastly Ones, Satan's Pilgrims etc.. becuase they put out lps,cds but we would have no idea that surf bands like yours and mine even excited thank god for the net and myspace so that's a great example and point that yes surf has always been very much alive but underground even back in the 60s it only was dead comercialy in the mainstream of the radio world of (AM) and national charts to present.

Bill I find it's most desirable to know that the Fender's I invest in and own to have all of it's original components down to the power/output trannys you know vintage mojo man there's nothing like it, investing in a classic car you want it cherry and stock all original as possible.

In my opnnion I think Both Showmans 6G14,6G14-A & AA763, AB763 are the holy grails because of there power and mojo
just my 2 cents
Piece

-Kyle

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-DGG

I'm going to have to disagree about the "creamy" distortion characteristics of the 5881. Regardless of plate dissipation, most pentodes have fairly awful distortion characteristics in a single-ended situation. Push-pull pentodes are even worse. I'm going to spare the details here. Any push-pull guitar amp (every Fender minus the Champ, etc.) using pentodes (6L6, 5881, 6V6) in the output stage is producing copious amounts of odd harmonic distortion while canceling most (two perfect tubes would cancel all) of the even harmonic distortion. The human ear can tolerate even alone, but not odd alone. Most of us like the combination of a little bit of odd, but mostly even. Also, we don't want much higher order harmonics, but most guitar amps avoid this by design.

With this in mind, we need to take advantage of all of the good things that pentodes offer, and try to eliminate the bad. Enter heavy negative voltage feedback, the backbone of Fender amps everywhere. Notice all of Fender's voltage gain stages (12AX7, 12AY7, etc.) through the years have NOT had much or any negative feedback. Our ears can tolerate much easier how triodes distort, so why waste parts and money eliminating something that sounds alright. Far more "musical" characteristics. Get the second gain stage (or third & fourth depending on model) to breakup a bit and slightly push the power stage, now you've got something...

A bit delayed on this, but I'm pretty sure the amps the Astronauts are posing with are Showman Amps, not Bandmasters.

Here's the album:
image

Here's a Bandmaster:
image
Notice that the "shoulder" of the speaker cabinet is broader than on the Astronauts album.
The best picture I could find of a Showman with a 1x12" cabinet is this from the 1961 catalog:
image
The shoulder of this amp is identical to that on the Astronauts album. Also, if I remember correctly, one of the Astronauts albums shows them in the studio and the amps are 1x12" Showmans.

DGG, DualShowman, interesting debate. I always understood that the Fender tweed amps were so desirable to blooz players exactly because of the clipping output stage characteristics (resulting i.a. from a lacking NFL)? or is that misconception on my part? (just trying to learn here)

WR

Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."

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thanks for clearing that up - I didn't mean debate in a bad way btw, just an exchange of information and pov's.

WR

Rules to live by #314:
"When in Italy, if the menu says something's grilled, don't assume it is."

https://www.facebook.com/The-Malbehavers-286429584796173/