audiodrome
Joined: Oct 12, 2008
Posts: 29
Boston
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Posted on Jun 12 2009 06:41 PM
I have a 1983 '62 Reissue Stratocaster with the stock Fender '57/'62 pickups and I've always thought they sounded kind of generic. I mean they do sound good and have a nice Fender tone but I'm looking for something with a little more vintage sonic character (like my '63 Jaguar has). I don't think it's a question of them not being wound hot enough (they're all in the 6k range) but there's just a certain something that seems to be lacking and I can't quite put my finger on it. I usually play clean (surf style) through either a '64 Super Reverb or a Vox AC30TBX. I've heard some early '60s Strats that just have that killer vintage tone to die for! I know that there are a lot of boutique shops making vintage-correct Strat pickups but I don't even know where to begin! I know that a lot of these pickup makers favor that bluesy Tex-Mex SRV tone and I'm looking for more of a clean surf style tone (I do play in a Beach Boys tribute band after all)!
How are the Seymour Duncan Antiquity II Surfer pickups?
— Paul
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Woodsurfer
Joined: Feb 07, 2009
Posts: 310
Bel Air, MD USA
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Posted on Jun 12 2009 07:58 PM
This would be a can of worms you've open, then. I'm not going to offer any opinions, just a little observation, having had my eyes thoroughly glazed over on more than one occasion by the "pickup wars", especially with regard to Strats.
Back in the Days of Vintage, pickups were wound by hand and not with the kind of precision that can be achieved these days. There are some who will tell you that the pickups wound by this or that employee at the Fender plant (e.g., Abigail Ybarra) were notably superior and maybe that's true but I suspect that "consistency" and "attention to detail" are the qualities that made them better rather than some special understanding of their sonic quality or (sic) 'mojo'. It might be possible to duplicate the "Ybarra" pickup to within an angstrom these days but I'm betting that they don't sound exactly like that '69 that so-and-so used to play -- or whatever.
The upshot is that you can spend a great deal of money, time and mental anguish trying to find the Holy Grail tone, swapping pickups every fortnight until you get led gently away by the nice men in the white coats. If you've got the valuta and energy to spare, go for it.
-- Woody
— It takes a lot of mussel memory to avoid clams.
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SURFmole
Joined: Nov 22, 2007
Posts: 901
Portland, OR
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Posted on Jun 12 2009 08:21 PM
I personally don't like the 57/62 reissue pickups that much (had them in an AVRI).
I have the CS69 pickups now and I think they really do sound like that '69 so and so used to play 
Honestly I'm sure you could pick up two 1969 Strats and they're going to sound different even though they have the same pickups. I have the CS69 pickups in my Strat, my friend has the CS69 pickups in his Strat....both Strats sound different.
Bottom line, both Strats have a cool vintage tone and the CS69s are great pickups.
There are other great pickups too. Acmeguitarworks used to have some great soundclips on their website to compare but I'm not sure if the link is there anymore.
— www.apollo4.com
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morphball
Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 3324
Pittsboro, NC
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Posted on Jun 12 2009 08:59 PM
I'm by no means a tone expert, but what I've heard time and time again is to not sweat over the pickups too much- the tone you seek is going to be all about your amp. You won't go wrong with any of the vintage-wound offerings by the usual suspects (fender CS, Seymour Duncan, Lindy Fralin, etc.). I use the Fralin vintage hots myself.
— Mike
http://www.youtube.com/morphballio
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Joelman
Joined: Sep 07, 2006
Posts: 1506
Redlands, CA
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Posted on Jun 12 2009 11:48 PM
WoodsurferThe upshot is that you can spend a great deal of money, time and mental anguish trying to find the Holy Grail tone,
Woodsurfer speaks the GREAT TRUTH!
The Holy Grail of sound as refered above is very subjective.
Good hunting.
Joel
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IvanP
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10331
southern Michigan
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Posted on Jun 13 2009 10:50 AM
audiodrome
How are the Seymour Duncan Antiquity II Surfer pickups?
They're wonderful pickups. If you can't get them to sound good, the problem is not with the pickups.
— Ivan
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Doctor_Morbius
Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 608
This Planet Earth
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Posted on Jun 13 2009 04:36 PM
morphball
I'm by no means a tone expert, but what I've heard time and time again is to not sweat over the pickups too much- the tone you seek is going to be all about your amp. You won't go wrong with any of the vintage-wound offerings by the usual suspects (fender CS, Seymour Duncan, Lindy Fralin, etc.). I use the Fralin vintage hots myself.
What he said. Now that I've gotten the "ideal" circumstance out of the way, I'll state the actual. I'm still on the quest for tone and have about a dozen different sets of Strat pickups. The problem is I like 'em all but for different reasons.
— Cats 'n' Strats, 'cause that's how I roll - I eat reverb for breakfast!
Fenderus Collecticus
Strat Blender Pot Modification HERE
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Doctor_Morbius
Joined: Oct 26, 2008
Posts: 608
This Planet Earth
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Posted on Jun 13 2009 05:03 PM
IvanP
audiodrome
How are the Seymour Duncan Antiquity II Surfer pickups?
They're wonderful pickups. If you can't get them to sound good, the problem is not with the pickups.
I have a set of those with the Custom Bridge in one of my Strats. Excellent pickups for just about anything but teh brewtalz. I'd have to say they are my favorite set out of the ones I've tried so far, whether playing surf or whatever. They just sound like an old Strat should - full and woody.
— Cats 'n' Strats, 'cause that's how I roll - I eat reverb for breakfast!
Fenderus Collecticus
Strat Blender Pot Modification HERE
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SURFmole
Joined: Nov 22, 2007
Posts: 901
Portland, OR
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Posted on Jun 13 2009 06:40 PM
morphball
I'm by no means a tone expert, but what I've heard time and time again is to not sweat over the pickups too much- the tone you seek is going to be all about your amp. You won't go wrong with any of the vintage-wound offerings by the usual suspects (fender CS, Seymour Duncan, Lindy Fralin, etc.). I use the Fralin vintage hots myself.
OK...I disagree! He said he plays through a '64 Super Reverb or a Vox AC30TBX. That tells me the problem isn't the amp. Time for new pickups...or a new Strat.
I don't think anything with "hot" in the description is the right pickup either. More windings means more top-end roll off and less chime and twang. In other words NOT the vintage Strat tone characteristics. Vintage Hot is an oxymoron. I agree with you though in that any of the vintage offerings (Fender CS, SD, Frailin, Lollar, etc) would probably be fine.
I'd go with the CS69 or Antiquity II Surfers. If those don't get you there I'd look for a new guitar.
Again...all subjective and a can of worms...
— www.apollo4.com
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Woodsurfer
Joined: Feb 07, 2009
Posts: 310
Bel Air, MD USA
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Posted on Jun 13 2009 07:07 PM
. . . and have you noticed how the tone is freakin' great on Tuesday but thin and nasty on Wednesday? Subjective and subject to the vagaries of human sense and emotion.
-- W
— It takes a lot of mussel memory to avoid clams.
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audiodrome
Joined: Oct 12, 2008
Posts: 29
Boston
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Posted on Jun 13 2009 08:21 PM
I may just have to look into those SD Antiquity II PUs. I like that "full and woody" description! It's certainly not my guitar that's the problem. That USA '62 Reissue is easily one of the best guitars I've ever played in my life including many vintage Strats. Now don't get me wrong, the 57/62 pickups sound fine; they just don't sound unbelievable (I'm VERY picky about my guitar tone, as most of you probably are also). The pickups could be just getting old and tired (a quarter century and counting). I agree that hot Strat pickups probably wouldn't work for me considering the fact that I like a lot of clean top end.
Now if this makes any sense, I kind of wish my Strat sounded a little bit more like my '63 Jaguar (which DOES sound unbelievable) - clear, quacky, glassy and almost clipped (in a good way) with a scooped midrange (think of the "I Get Around" guitar solo) but with vintage Stratocaster character. Does that make any sense? 
— Paul
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zak
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 2728
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Posted on Jun 13 2009 08:46 PM
This post has been removed by the author.
Last edited: Sep 24, 2009 00:01:52
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morphball
Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 3324
Pittsboro, NC
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Posted on Jun 13 2009 09:09 PM
SURFmole
I don't think anything with "hot" in the description is the right pickup either. More windings means more top-end roll off and less chime and twang. In other words NOT the vintage Strat tone characteristics. Vintage Hot is an oxymoron. I agree with you though in that any of the vintage offerings (Fender CS, SD, Frailin, Lollar, etc) would probably be fine.
I'd go with the CS69 or Antiquity II Surfers. If those don't get you there I'd look for a new guitar.
Okay- I'm going on the assumption that increased windings equal increased output, so just stop me if I'm wrong... therefore I wouldn't put too much into the "hot" description. The output of my Lindy's are 6K-6K-6.8K, while vintage '62 strat specs are approximately 6.22K, even hotter at the neck and middle. They are also hand-wound, have beveled magnets and cloth leads like originals; I would think that these factors would be closer to the original despite being labeled hots, right? (My point is to look at the specs before judging...)
— Mike
http://www.youtube.com/morphballio
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SURFmole
Joined: Nov 22, 2007
Posts: 901
Portland, OR
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Posted on Jun 14 2009 01:47 AM
zak
Pickups aren't a magic solution to your guitar's sonic woes. They amplify what already is or isn't there, the basic sonic properties of your guitar will far outweigh any subtlety a pickup swap will get. A trem block with more mass, or maybe a better more resonant body...that would make a much bigger difference.
Crap, it kills me to agree with Zak on something but what he says is true (within reason...switching to EMG or super-duper-hot pickups or something is not a subtle pickup swap). That was my point about looking for a new guitar. Try CS69s or SD Antiquity IIs. If that doesn't fix your problem you need to look elsewhere...like the guitar itself...a resonant body and a Callaham bridge (or just trem block) can make a difference.
A resonant body can make a set of pickups sound completely different and 'more alive' all else being equal.
For an even bigger improvement in tone get a beam blocker
morphball
Okay- I'm going on the assumption that increased windings equal increased output, so just stop me if I'm wrong... therefore I wouldn't put too much into the "hot" description. The output of my Lindy's are 6K-6K-6.8K, while vintage '62 strat specs are approximately 6.22K, even hotter at the neck and middle. They are also hand-wound, have beveled magnets and cloth leads like originals; I would think that these factors would be closer to the original despite being labeled hots, right? (My point is to look at the specs before judging...)
There's a bunch of variables with output and the wire used can make a difference as well. Increased windings with all other things being the same = increased output at the expense of less top end and chime and more exaggerated mids. From the Fralin website "A stronger pickup will make your treble strings sound better but your wound strings will get farther from the Fender twang".
Vintage Strat specs aren't hotter at the neck and middle (all pickups are wound to the same spec)...output is higher because the neck and mid positions are higher output all else being the same. That's why your Fralin bridge is 6.8K to balance with the neck and mid position that are 6.22 but louder due to position. In the old days you could just turn a screw and lower or raise the pickups to balance them!
I looked at specs and listened to clips before choosing a set of pickups. The CS69 sounded better to me than the Fralins on the soundclips that Acme used to have on their website...and I'm NOT saying that the Fralins aren't fine sounding pickups; just different.
For what it's worth, the CS69 are fairly accurate for a '69 Strat pickup. -About as accurate as you can get other than the 'real thing' IMHO and I happen to love their sound. The output is shockingly low (I think they're wound to 5.7K) and the same wire, grey bobbins, non-beveled magnets, etc are used. All pickups are machine wound (like originals were from that era) and are wound to the same specs (all the same impedance and no RW/RP middle pickup for hum cancelling).
— www.apollo4.com
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Ruhar
Joined: Jun 21, 2007
Posts: 3909
San Diego, CA
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Posted on Jun 14 2009 09:16 AM
For what its worth, I'm very happy with the '57/'62 pickups. Once I got the height of the pickups dialed in, the sound greatly improved (fattened up and became more tough sensitive).
— Ryan
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morphball
Joined: Dec 23, 2008
Posts: 3324
Pittsboro, NC
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Posted on Jun 14 2009 10:11 AM
Thanks Surfmole, that makes sense. I was actually just whining about a lack of twang on my Fralins a couple weeks back, but have now become fairly convinced that "twang" has more to do with the player's technique. (Alternate picking, picking closer to the bridge, chicken-picking, etc.) I've never heard a real '62 set, but I'm pretty happy with my chime now, esp. after Ivan, Ruhar and Stormtiger convinced me that a little bridge float is a good thing. (Thanks again guys!)
— Mike
http://www.youtube.com/morphballio
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audiodrome
Joined: Oct 12, 2008
Posts: 29
Boston
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Posted on Jun 14 2009 10:12 AM
zak
One of the "best guitars" you've ever played, yet you describe the tone as "generic" and want to make it sound like something else?
No...does not really make sense.
Sure it does. I'm talking about the PLAYABILITY, not the sound. The neck, the fingerboard and the body feel and play like an absolute dream! I just need different pickups - that's all.
zak
The pickups just getting old and tired (a quarter century and counting) makes even less sense. Pickups from 1983 are not "old".
I have had a couple of pickups "weaken" on me over the years but I agree that that theory was probably just a "shot in the dark" as I'm searching for answers.
zak
Pickups aren't a magic solution to your guitar's sonic woes. They amplify what already is or isn't there, the basic sonic properties of your guitar will far outweigh any subtlety a pickup swap will get. A trem block with more mass, or maybe a better more resonant body...that would make a much bigger difference.
Yes, of course those are all factors but I've had more than a few guitars completely "come to life" by changing the pickups, so in my experience a pickup swap can most certainly be more than subtle. In some cases it can make a huge difference!
— Paul
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zak
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 2728
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Posted on Jun 14 2009 10:35 AM
This post has been removed by the author.
Last edited: Sep 24, 2009 00:02:53
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IvanP
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 10331
southern Michigan
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Posted on Jun 14 2009 10:43 AM
zak
That is probably true when replacing crappy pickups with something of quality, but what is already in your guitar is a decent set of pickups. If you're going to replace them with a "vintage" style set with the same type of magnet, winding, and resistance, don't expect a huge difference.
I think Zak is exactly right on this. I personally cannot hear much significant difference between my '57/'62 set, Seymour Duncan Alnico II Pro APS-1, Seymour Duncan Antiquity Surfers and Seymour Duncan SSL-1. Granted, I've been playing in very loud bands for the past 20 years, and I know my hearing has been, ahem, attenuated (read: damaged), but I suspect that applies to almost anyone that's played in rock bands for any length of time. Anyway, yeah, these pickups have slightly different colors to them, but they're all great pickups and can give great sounds. As MANY, MANY guitarists have pointed out in the past, the tone is in your hands, not in whether the pickups have been wound by hand or by a machine or whether they use cloth wire or whatever. People obsess way too much over these kinds of gear minutae....
I'd also like to point out that you may really want a Jaguar - if you're trying to copy Beach Boys solos, I don't think any of them were recorded with a Strat. If it was Carl Wilson playing them, it would have been a Jag. If it was Tommy Tedesco playing them, it was probably a Tele. So, trying to replicate that sound with a Strat may be a goose chase....
— Ivan
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audiodrome
Joined: Oct 12, 2008
Posts: 29
Boston
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Posted on Jun 14 2009 10:58 AM
Thanks for the tips Zak!
It could be that I'm another victim of "guitar mod-itis" and I'm just trying to fix something that isn't broken. The thing that started this all off is that my '63 Jaguar has SO much sonic character that when I switch over to my Strat I want that guitar to sound just as magical. It's possible that my Strat sounds the way an early '60s Strat should sound and maybe I'm just looking for some elusive tone that only certain guitars possess. I just played it again this morning and it actually does sound great so maybe I'm chasing the "mod bug."
I think I also got spoiled with pickup swapping thinking it would instantly transform any guitar into gold. I recently upgraded the stock Gretsch DynaSonic pickups on my 6120DSV to a Seymour Duncan custom-wound set that sounds absolutely mindblowing! I will admit that usually a pickup change is not that dramatic. Even when I put TV Jones Classics in my '66 Gretsch Tennessean I was very pleased with the sound but it wasn't mindblowing.
Since I've had such a great experience with Seymour Duncan pickups, someday I might try their Antiquity II Surfer set and maybe it will provide that placebo effect I've been looking for!
— Paul
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