newey
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Posts: 10
Ohio
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Posted on Mar 24 2009 06:06 PM
JonW wrote:
I could just buy the speakers and build another cabinet. Maybe go with pine or something of the sort next time, to keep the weight down. Maybe build the cabinet and speakers and run it with the Bandmaster for a while
If you do decide to DIY a bass cab, Woody is right on the depth question. A couple of other tips I have heard on the subject:
1) If it's a single speaker in the cab, don't center it in the front baffle. Move it up a bit. This gets it away from the floor and also reduces unwanted resonances.
2) Also, to further reduce unwanted resonances, in a closed back cab, don't make the front parallel to the back; angled the front slightly. The idea is to make the cab ever-so-slightly asymmetric.
That's my 2 cents, FWIW. There is plenty of info out on the web about cabinet design as well, much of it very technical.
— If I wax pot my pickups, will they work underwater?
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Stormtiger
Joined: Dec 12, 2006
Posts: 2687
Ventura, CA
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Posted on Mar 24 2009 06:51 PM
Ben
Hey dp or anybody else,
Not to hijack this guy's thread (I think he has his answer by now though).
How would a 2x15 Showman cab do for bass with Showman head? It's a regular closed back guitar cab from '66.
I've got a line on one that I might like to use for bass cab. I don't know what kind of speakers it has? Any good recommendation for speakers?
I don't think anyone mentioned that Sam Bolle uses a Showman and 2 - 1x 15" cabs with Dick Dale.
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zak
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 2728
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Posted on Mar 24 2009 07:00 PM
This post has been removed by the author.
Last edited: Sep 23, 2009 22:39:51
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JonW
Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 237
Indiana
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Posted on Mar 24 2009 07:08 PM
WoodyJ
Cabinet size/volume is very important. Although a Dual Showman is a very good bass rig with proper speakers, it would sound better if the cabinet were deeper (front-to-rear) as it is voiced for guitar, not bass. There is a lot of science involved in speaker cabinet design and porting that is way over my head. But I will say that tone-wise, the single 15" Fender clone cabinet that Eddie Katcher built for me several years back is the best-sounding single 15" bass cab I've ever played through. It is the same size as the very early single 12" tone ring Showman/Bassman cabinets (30" wide. 20" high), but I had Eddie make this one 15" deep (instead of 11.5") to get more cabinet volume. It's all you need in all but the bigger venues. Here's a pic:
newey
If you do decide to DIY a bass cab, Woody is right on the depth question. A couple of other tips I have heard on the subject:
1) If it's a single speaker in the cab, don't center it in the front baffle. Move it up a bit. This gets it away from the floor and also reduces unwanted resonances.
2) Also, to further reduce unwanted resonances, in a closed back cab, don't make the front parallel to the back; angled the front slightly. The idea is to make the cab ever-so-slightly asymmetric.
That's my 2 cents, FWIW. There is plenty of info out on the web about cabinet design as well, much of it very technical.
For whatever its (probably not) worth, Ive actually designed a stereo speaker, from the ground up, with a crossover and everything. Ported cabinets on that one. But knowing how to make an accurate speaker and knowing what makes for a good sounding bass amp and speaker setup are 2 different things.
For my guitar amp, yep, I did not center the speaker on the baffle. An asymmetric cabinet is also a good idea, although I didnt do that for my guitar amp (but did for my stereo speakers).
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JonW
Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 237
Indiana
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Posted on Mar 24 2009 07:08 PM
WoodyJ
Bass players are a different breed than guitar players from a gear standpoint. While a majority of guitar players stick with gear whose designs date back to the 50's and 60's...Strats, Teles, Les Pauls, Fender, Vox and Marshall tube amps..many bass players seem to gravitate toward the "latest, greatest" gear available, especially regarding amps. While the Ampeg SVT with a 8x10 cabinet is still the standard for the big stages, there is an unbelievable array of bass amps to suit the needs of every bassists style. Speaker choice is also complex, depending on what you want. Everything from cabs with 5" drivers to 18".
Woody,
Thanks for the bass amp primer.  Ive noticed exactly what youre saying. Been reading over at TalkBass.com. Interesting place. Yeah, things there seem to be more toward modern sounds. For guitar sounds Im all about what the sg101ers here like. Ahhh, my BF Bandmaster, Weber 12 speaker, and reverb tank
can there be anything better? But pretty sure Ill want to stray from vintage sounds for bass. So I should probably go for something on the versatile side of things here.
WoodyJ
With that said, I'm still pretty old school bass-wise. Duck Dunn, James Jamerson and Bob Bogle are my bass heroes. Yes, I am a huge fan of the Electro-Voice bass speakers, but they are getting hard to find and have become very pricey. E-V's current bass speaker appears to be the DL 12X and DL 15X, available at U.S.Speaker, site link: http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm
The latest thing in bass speaker technology is the neodymium magnet. The neo magnets weigh a lot less than conventional alnico or ceramic ones and in my experience perform just as well. I have two Mesa bass amps with 12" neos, and they sound fabulous. Eminence seems to be the new leader in bass speakers, and they are priced very reasonably compared to a new E-V or an old JBL that will probably need reconing. SWR, Fender and other bass amp manufacturers are using Eminence speakers nowadays, so they must be decent.
Speaker size? That's a personal preference thing. 10's give a tight, focused sound. 18's (to me) are way too flabby. I like either a single or two 15's for stage work, and 12's in the studio.
Agreed that 18 is getting into the flabby territory with most (all?) cone materials. And neodymium sounds good. I think Ill want to start out with a 5 string bass and really explore the lower sounds. So maybe avoid the 10 drivers. For my home purposes maybe 2 x 12 would be good. Or 1 x 15 or even 2 x 15. If I use the Bandmaster amp or a Showman/Dual Showman Ill have to get 4 ohm speakers if its single or 8 ohm speakers if its dual.
So what are your favorite speakers (that are readily available)? I guess I dont even know where to start in picking them.
Ive also noticed that for amps people often use things with much more power than, say, a BF Showman. So Im not sure about the amps either. I dont yet know much about bass amps.
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JonW
Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 237
Indiana
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Posted on Mar 24 2009 07:13 PM
zak
Then again we're obscenely loud, under normal circumstances a Showman with a 2x15 should work great.
OK, good to know that a Showman and 2 x 15 would be good for most purposes. Except for you loud kids.  
Im mostly thinking about playing at home but want to reserve the right to play out later. So maybe even 1 x 15 or 2 x 12 would be better for me. Blackface Showmen are pretty readily available. Woody's blonde setup looks really nice but I think such an amp may be a little pricey for me. So hwo to collect info on what speaker(s) to use and how to pick the cabinet to fit it all in? Hmmm...
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WoodyJ
Joined: Apr 05, 2006
Posts: 1547
Bethlehem, GA
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Posted on Mar 24 2009 10:37 PM
JonW
zak
Then again we're obscenely loud, under normal circumstances a Showman with a 2x15 should work great.
OK, good to know that a Showman and 2 x 15 would be good for most purposes. Except for you loud kids.
Im mostly thinking about playing at home but want to reserve the right to play out later. So maybe even 1 x 15 or 2 x 12 would be better for me. Blackface Showmen are pretty readily available. Woody's blonde setup looks really nice but I think such an amp may be a little pricey for me. So hwo to collect info on what speaker(s) to use and how to pick the cabinet to fit it all in? Hmmm...
Jon, the Showman in the pic was a '67 Blackface before Eddie K recovered it in blonde Tolex back in the late '90's.
Since the Electro-Voice bass speakers have gotten so expensive, I believe I'd go with the Eminence BassLite (neodymium) series which are affordable, lightweight and available in 12" and 15" versions. I haven't tried these out, but did have a SWR cabinet that came with a single 15" Eminence (ceramic magnet) and it sounded fine.
Another bass amplifier axiom to remember: 85 tube-driven watts (Showman) are significantly louder than 100 solid state watts. Not to mention being warm and toneful...if that is your thing. If you like a cleaner, hi-fi sound, get a SWR or a Gallien-Krueger.
Back to speakers...Weber makes JBL D-140F clone in a bass version (California high-power series), but I don't know anyone who has used these. I'm a big fan of Weber's guitar speakers, though.
You can find some excellent buys on good used bass cabs on ebay or Craigslist. A single 15 or a 2x12 cabinet is great for home or small/medium size venue gigs.
And Zak is right on about the Peavey cabinets...they are excellent bang for the buck, and Peavey's Black Widow bass speakers are very good as well. An old Peavey 215D slot port is a thing of great sonic beauty!
— Jack Booth
(aka WoodyJ)
The Mariners (1964-68, 1996-2005)
The Hula Hounds (1996-current)
The X-Rays (1997-2004)
The Surge! (2004, 2011-2012)
Various non-surf bands that actually made money (1978-1990)
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bigtikidude
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 25682
Anaheim(So.Cal.)U.S.A.
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Posted on Mar 24 2009 11:11 PM
eddiekatcher
See there BTD.......
No discrimination in Southern Surf Circles.................ed
ed
Huh?
— Jeff(bigtikidude)
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eddiekatcher
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2778
Atlanta, GA
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Posted on Mar 25 2009 07:32 AM
Clarification.......We Southern Surf Dudes love our bass amps too.........................
Ole Woody J has used a pair of Showman/2-15 rigs on numerous occasions. Outside that rig (s) moved some serious air.
ed
— Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?
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dp
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 3546
mojave desert, california
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Posted on Mar 25 2009 12:42 PM
WoodyJ
Since the Electro-Voice bass speakers have gotten so expensive, I believe I'd go with the Eminence BassLite (neodymium) series which are affordable, lightweight and available in 12" and 15" versions. I haven't tried these out, but did have a SWR cabinet that came with a single 15" Eminence (ceramic magnet) and it sounded fine.
Another bass amplifier axiom to remember: 85 tube-driven watts (Showman) are significantly louder than 100 solid state watts. Not to mention being warm and toneful...if that is your thing. If you like a cleaner, hi-fi sound, get a SWR or a Gallien-Krueger.
Back to speakers...Weber makes JBL D-140F clone in a bass version (California high-power series), but I don't know anyone who has used these. I'm a big fan of Weber's guitar speakers, though.
You can find some excellent buys on good used bass cabs on ebay or Craigslist. A single 15 or a 2x12 cabinet is great for home or small/medium size venue gigs.
And Zak is right on about the Peavey cabinets...they are excellent bang for the buck, and Peavey's Black Widow bass speakers are very good as well. An old Peavey 215D slot port is a thing of great sonic beauty!
I wanted to second the opinion about the Eminence speakers: they are great speakers at a great bargain price. i have two of the 12" Eminence 300 watt speakers in my setup, and they perform terrifically.
Also, i'd second the Peavey Black Widow loaded cabs: they also sound terrific.
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eddiekatcher
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2778
Atlanta, GA
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Posted on Mar 25 2009 01:42 PM
Those Eminence Speakers are probably the ones that closely resemble the EV's. I have two 15's that look just like EV's in a large Dual Showman cab that's pretty good for bass.......but damn, it's big.
ed
— Traditional........speak softly and play through a big blonde amp. Did I mention that I still like big blonde amps?
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MadScientist
Joined: Jan 17, 2008
Posts: 2188
Atlanta, GA
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Posted on Mar 25 2009 02:06 PM
I love love love my Eminence Legend 151's that I have in my main 2x15 cab. I'd buy them again in a second.
—
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JonW
Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 237
Indiana
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Posted on Mar 26 2009 02:41 PM
Hey Guys,
Thanks again. This thread is really helpful for me. Maybe for others as well.
eddiekatcher
Clarification.......We Southern Surf Dudes love our bass amps too.........................
Ahh, I see. I had to put that one through Google Translate.
Woody- Thanks again for all the detailed help.
WoodyJ
Jon, the Showman in the pic was a '67 Blackface before Eddie K recovered it in blonde Tolex back in the late '90's.
Got it. Thats one pretty looking rig. If it sounds as good as it looks
I guess that going for a Blackface Showman or Dual Showman is appealing to someone like me coming from the guitar world. The amp could also work for guitar if the need arises, these ones are still relatively affordable, and I know that, at least for guitars, these types of amps can sound very, very nice. And
WoodyJ
Another bass amplifier axiom to remember: 85 tube-driven watts (Showman) are significantly louder than 100 solid state watts. Not to mention being warm and toneful...if that is your thing. If you like a cleaner, hi-fi sound, get a SWR or a Gallien-Krueger.
Good to know. Ive seen that mentioned but dont have a feel for how much it really comes into play. As I read more about bass amps Im seeing people talk about 300 W or even up to 600 W setups. Wow.
Both you and Zak seem to think 85 W (tubes) from a Showman is plenty loud for most of us. Also very good to know.
With regard to a cleaner or more hi-fi sound, to be honest, Im not entirely sure what Im after with regard to bass sounds. (More set in my single-coil-ways for guitar.) So I guess I should go for versatility.
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JonW
Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 237
Indiana
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Posted on Mar 26 2009 02:42 PM
WoodyJ
Back to speakers...Weber makes JBL D-140F clone in a bass version (California high-power series), but I don't know anyone who has used these. I'm a big fan of Weber's guitar speakers, though.
Since the Electro-Voice bass speakers have gotten so expensive, I believe I'd go with the Eminence BassLite (neodymium) series which are affordable, lightweight and available in 12" and 15" versions. I haven't tried these out, but did have a SWR cabinet that came with a single 15" Eminence (ceramic magnet) and it sounded fine.
You can find some excellent buys on good used bass cabs on ebay or Craigslist. A single 15 or a 2x12 cabinet is great for home or small/medium size venue gigs.
And Zak is right on about the Peavey cabinets...they are excellent bang for the buck, and Peavey's Black Widow bass speakers are very good as well. An old Peavey 215D slot port is a thing of great sonic beauty!
dp
I wanted to second the opinion about the Eminence speakers: they are great speakers at a great bargain price. i have two of the 12" Eminence 300 watt speakers in my setup, and they perform terrifically.
Also, i'd second the Peavey Black Widow loaded cabs: they also sound terrific.
eddiekatcher
Those Eminence Speakers are probably the ones that closely resemble the EV's. I have two 15's that look just like EV's in a large Dual Showman cab that's pretty good for bass.......but damn, it's big.
MadScientist
I love love love my Eminence Legend 151's that I have in my main 2x15 cab. I'd buy them again in a second.
Excellent. Lots of praise for the Eminence and Peavey speakers. So maybe Ill look into those some more. I see that theyre actually not expensive. And all the Thiele-Small parameters are available for designing a cabinet. Looks like the 12 Basslites have a power handling rating of only 150 W each, though, and 350 W for the Peaveys. Might only 150 W decrease future flexibility if I, for some reason, decided that I want to go to a higher power solid state amp, down the road? I guess using 2 of them gets me to 300 W.
Im definitely inclined to build my own cabinet rather than buy one. (Can make it prettier, an excuse to do some woodworking, make it tailored to how I want it, etc.)
Maybe make a 2 x 12 cabinet, using some pretty wood, using 2 of the 8 ohm Eminence or Peavey speakers to get to the 4 ohms of a Showman. And if I actually do all of this, I could even play it for a while through my Bandmaster amp and see how that goes for playing at home. So far that's sounding pretty good. Hmmm
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zak
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
Posts: 2728
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Posted on Mar 26 2009 03:44 PM
This post has been removed by the author.
Last edited: Sep 23, 2009 22:40:03
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JonW
Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 237
Indiana
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Posted on Mar 27 2009 05:47 PM
zak
General rule of thumb for bass is you ideally want triple the power of your guitar player's setup. A bass through a Showman won't be deafeningly loud, but it won't get drowned out unless the guitars are excessively loud. In our situation, under "normal" stage conditions, the bass has to compete with two guitars plugged into Showman amps which are usually turned up somewhere between 6 and 8 and a 180 watt Leslie for the Farfisa. No way in hell a Showman will compete with that. You can still hear it, but clarity goes out the window. Luckily, most people aren't as abusive as we are with the volume levels. In the late 90s when we were using 40 watt amps onstage there was no problem whatsoever with the bass & Showman combination.
Got it. That all makes perfect sense.
As I get older and more into audio, I try to keep the volume down so as to preserve these ears for the future. So I just dont see myself ever playing in a super loud band.
zak
Our bass player uses these, they sound fantastic for bass and don't have an obnoxiously long break-in time like some speakers do:
http://www.eminence.com/guitar_speaker_detail.asp?model=LEGENDCB15&speaker_size=15&SUB_CAT_ID=5
Excellent. Ill give those a look. If you say they sound fantastic, that speaks a lot- you really know your stuff. 300 W and 8 ohms, so Id need a pair. Not expensive but the cabinet is getting to be pretty big. Still, Id rather go big and excellent sounding than conveniently-sized but only mediocre sound.
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dp
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 3546
mojave desert, california
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Posted on Mar 28 2009 11:44 PM
Here's the Eminence Delta 12" 300W i use:
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Eminence-Delta-12LFA-12-PA-Speaker?sku=667708
image
it looks like they're currently listed under "PA Speakers" but these speakers come standard in Ashdown bass amps...be sure to read the user comments, most seem to be accurate and true.
I have had great performance from these speakers in a Gallien-Kruger 300W solid state application.
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JonW
Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 237
Indiana
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Posted on Mar 31 2009 09:48 PM
dp
Here's the Eminence Delta 12" 300W i use:
http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Eminence-Delta-12LFA-12-PA-Speaker?sku=667708
it looks like they're currently listed under "PA Speakers" but these speakers come standard in Ashdown bass amps...be sure to read the user comments, most seem to be accurate and true.
I have had great performance from these speakers in a Gallien-Kruger 300W solid state application.
Excellent- thanks dp! I really like your sound. So if you say these speakers are good... A 2 x 12 setup could be perfect for me. Any idea about the cabinet you're using with these- volume, sealed or ported, tuning, etc? I gather it's pretty important to pick those things well along with the speaker.
Interesting that you're using a GK 300W solid state amp. I don't have much experience with things like that, but they don't see too expensive when shopping used. And solid state could be less trouble than tubes. Something to consider.
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dp
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 3546
mojave desert, california
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Posted on Apr 03 2009 06:31 PM
Jon:
the GK is a bi-amp: 300 watts bass, 100 watts treble.
I use 300 watts bass into an old sealed 1967 Fender Quad 4x12" Bassman cabinet...it's loaded with 2x JBL 12" and 2x Eminence 12"...
I also use 100 watts treble into 2x 12" Celestion in an open back cabinet...
check out this link: post your rig area
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JonW
Joined: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 237
Indiana
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Posted on Apr 08 2009 11:40 AM
Thanks dp. Yeah, I read that thread. For some reason I thought here, in this current thread, that you might be talking about a different setup. Got it.
As I play my guitar, I've noticed that I am favoring the lower notes on the 2 lower strings (E, A). Maybe a Danelectro baritone tuned E-e is something else to think about. Hmmm... But I may never have the time to get good at all these things. Got to make some choices for where to focus my time. Not a bad position to be in, really.
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