wish Phil Dirt or John Blair were here now, but here's my stab at it.

There were 2 different sessions that they did in the 60's and one LP that came out from that.

later in the 70's when Jim messina got big with Kenny Logins some other lable re-released the album( slightly different cover) with some
songs formthe original album, and some songs form the alternate takes. ( so I heard).
so to have all the stuff, you gotta have both lps. ( good luck)
I got one form Lee Josephs of Dionysus records for 20 bucks at a tiki bar he DJ's at.

Ivan, which of the LP's were put on the Surf lable bootleg CD?

Jeff(bigtikidude)

Jeff(bigtikidude)

The Surf label CD release was of the original '60s release of the album (I think, I hadn't thought about this much for a while).

There is a LOT of confusion over these two versions of the album. John Blair once told me he thought Messina simply rerecorded some of the songs in the seventies for that release, which I find pretty much impossible to believe - cause there's no way he would have played and sounded so authentic at that point. Also, I can't imagine he would have cared about those recordings as he was raking in the dough doing his folk-rock stuff. Also, they're clealy NOT just mono and stereo versions - but rather different takes of many songs.

Here's the review of the album I posted two years ago on SG101 where I dissect some of those differences. Hope it's helpful.

Jim Messina and His Jesters: "Dragsters"
(Originally posted on Surf Guitar 101, June 25, 2004)

All this talk of Jim Messina made me pull out his CD and his album. I thought it would be interesting to share something with you that I have noticed.

The original Jesters LP was released sometime in '64 and was credited to "Jim Messina and his Jesters" (notice the copy of "Dick Dale and HIS Del-tones") and it was called The Dragsters. This is the LP that was reissued on CD on the semi-legit Euro label Surf in the '90s. It's great stuff, 14 songs, 11 of them written my Messina. The covers are: an uptempo version of the Breeze and I, and surf-guitar-led versions of fifties instro hits Honky Tonk and Raunchy. Messina's guitar work is truly exceptional, sounding like DD's flashier doppleganger, with a lot of nimble fingerwork full of fast hammer-ons and pull-offs, and not as much double-picking as you may expect. (I only recently started noticing how Dick-Dale-ish Messina's playing was. Listen to "The Thing" - it's a total rip-off of DD's "Surfing Drums" - which of course was a Bo Diddley rip-off itself! - and the licks he's playing are completely DD. Messina also uses the pickup position #4 (neck and middle pickups) a LOT, which is also something that DD pioneered
in surf music.)

I HIGHLY recommend this CD. The highlights for me are "The Jester", which is as good as any surf song I think, "The Cossack", "High Voltage" (an apt title!), and "Yang Bu". If there is one criticism I would have of the material is that it's a bit light on melody, instead relying on groove, energy and improvisation. But it works most of the time. There's a really nice jazz and even blues influence throughout, especially evident on "Suspense Run" and "Hollywood Sound" (both very jazzy in rhythm and featuring some tasty surf-blues guitar playing, with the latter obviously influenced by Mel Torme's "I'm Comin' Home Baby"). And as Messina mentioned in his interview, almost every song has a bunch of engine revving and tires skidding noises overdubbed. A lot of songs also have the noises of the band shouting along with the music, as if they're really into it. I suspect these were overdubbed later, along with the car-related noises.

So far, so good. But here's where it gets interesting. This album was rereleased in '73, when NOBODY had any interest in surf music! Why? Probably cause Messina was becoming a well-known name, and somebody wanted to capitalize on it. Did Messina have any involvement? Who knows? I have this LP, and the packaging looks like it was from the sixties, with nothing giving it away as a seventies record or a reissue. The liner notes all speak in the present tense, and the photos are all from '64, though at least the front cover is different than the original one. Big deal, you say. Well, OK, yes, if that's all it was, who cares. But then let's take a look at the track listing: only twelve songs this time ("Strange Man" and "Suspense Run" were omitted). Again, big deal. But wait! Here's where it gets interesting! Take a listen, side by side with the original tracks, and you come to the shocking conclusion that these are DIFFERENT versions of the tracks! The only song that appears to be the same version on both albums is "Hollywood Sound". The others vary from very subtle differences ("Chihiuahua", for example - that one required very careful listening to tell they're different) to completely different arrangements ("The Breeze and I"). And "Tamale Wagon" is a completely different song on the '73 album! Most of the other songs are different in more subtle ways, different tempos (with the original album tending to feature faster versions), different licks, chord progression going up at some point rather than down, different endings. And there are no shouting or racing noises. So what the hell is going on here? Nobody seems to know.

I've discussed this with John Blair a few years ago and he never noticed the different versions of the songs - he thought it was just a straight-forward reissue with a different cover, and two songs left out (and of course with all the noises left out). But for any of you that care and have both releases, compare them back to back. They're clearly different, sometimes very obviously so. John suggested that maybe Messina rerecorded the tracks in the seventies. I really doubt that. I suspect that Messina couldn't give a crap about surf music by '73, and anyway, the sound quality and the recording is very authentic: it SOUNDS like a cheap early- to mid-sixties recording, for better or worse. I can't imagine they would have struggled to get such an authentic sound in '73. They probably would have wanted to "improve" it! So, I'm pretty much 100% sure that's not it.

My conclusion is that whoever rereleased the album got a hold of a bunch of master tapes which were not marked very clearly. These master tapes probably spanned several months or more of recording dates, thus featuring evolving arrangements of the songs. And the tapes had a whole bunch of different takes of the same songs. Rather than going back to the earlier album and trying to recreate it perfectly, they probably just tried to listen for the best performances and released those only. This is my best explanation of what happened.

God, it would be really nice if somebody took the effort to find those master tapes, and release all of the different songs, plus their alternative '73 versions, in a cleaned-up sound, cause it doesn't really sound very good. It took a while but it happened for Eddie & the Showman, maybe one day it'll happen for the Jesters, too. They DEFINITELY deserve it! This is among the best of sixties surf music.

(BTW, looking at the front cover of the album, where I could see Messina's white Strat in a great deal of detail, you can see that Messina left off the volume and tone knobs on his Strat - again, just like DD!! Man, this kid had a BAD case of hero-worship! Good for us, though, he created some awesome music as a result.)

Ivan
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WR
is any of this material available on cd, apart from that bootleg cd? has it ever been? is that bootleg still available?.

As far as I know the Surf label bootleg (which also has the Adrian & the Sunsets album) is the only CD release it's ever had.

WR
I 'd also be intersted in essential comps. I know I have some Messina stuff on comps - cant remember which comps he 's on right now, and i'm at work so I can't look it up. I bet some of ity is on the surflegends series.

There's an alternate version of "The Jester" on one of the Lost Legends comps. "A-Rab" (which isn't on any version of the Jesters' album) is on one of the Surf Creature volumes. "Yang Bu" is on Bustin' Surfboards, and based off of Ivan's mammoth post (thanks dude!) it's from a later session, with a much tighter arrangement and better production than the version on the Surf label bootleg.

Plus there's the excellent Treblemakers' album "Flippin the Bird," which has a boatload of Jesters covers.

-Warren

That was excessively violent and completely unnecessary. I loved it.

The original Dragsters album is currently on eBay at $404 with 4 days to go.

T H E ✠ S U R F I T E S

Klas
The original Dragsters album is currently on eBay at $404 with 4 days to go.

That is just NUTS!!! Maybe somebody will finally get the idea and officially rerelease this on CD now.

Ivan

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
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The Madeira Channel on YouTube

WR
perhaps posts like these - they pop up regularly by some of the better writers here - can be archived in some special section somewhere. it's not really a review, more in-depth background articl;es on specific artists, labels, rcording sessions and so on. maybe a section 'background information' in the 'topics' part of the site?

I remember a lot of posts like these from the yahoo group as well, and I think they're too good and too valuable to leave 'em only in these forums inbetween all the quick replies everyone is making. Brian, can yo chime in?

I have a generic topic called Articles that would work for this perfectly. I will create another post in another sub-forum soon requesting more user submissions.

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CaptainSpringfield

Klas
The original Dragsters album is currently on eBay at $404 with 4 days to go.

I honestly thought you were kidding. It'll be interesting to see if it goes any higher. Every version I've seen on eBay has gone for waaaaaaaaaaaay less than $400. Including an 8-track version! How badass is that?

And since we're discussing the Jesters and all, is it the same Glenn Frey on rhythm that later went on to commit major league sonic atrocities with the Eagles?

-Warren

No it is not Glenn Frey of the Eagles. I do not know where I read that but somewhere that question was asked.

"as he stepped into the stealthy night air... little did he know the fire escape was not there"

https://www.facebook.com/reluctantaquanauts/
https://www.facebook.com/TheDragstripVipers/

Hey Warren, I remember reading somewhere that 'Frey' in Messina-Frey was not a band member, but in fact the son of the head of the label, who put his name in the credits without Messina's knowledge. I think that was the story, and Messina was pretty bitter about it!

Ivan

Ivan
Lords of Atlantis on Facebook
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The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

CaptainSpringfield
I honestly thought you were kidding. It'll be interesting to see if it goes any higher. Every version I've seen on eBay has gone for waaaaaaaaaaaay less than $400. Including an 8-track version! How badass is that?

And since we're discussing the Jesters and all, is it the same Glenn Frey on rhythm that later went on to commit major league sonic atrocities with the Eagles?

-Warren

First off that is waaaay cool about there being a 8 track of this album.
I was asking my dad if he ever saw any 8 tracks of surf stuff when he was a teen( besides the Beach Boys and Jan and Dean, of course). But he said no, but was sure there had to be some. Does anybody know of any others besides this one.

As for hating on the Eagles.
No I'm not a huge Eagles fan, but I thought they were allright for
70's California rock. There was defiently alot worse stuff comin out at that time. Sonny and Cher, Captain and Taneil, Carpenters,
oh gawd I can't get the bile taste out of my mouth.

Jeff(bigtikidude)

Jeff(bigtikidude)

IvanP
John Blair's book lists one Bill Beckman on rhythm guitar - and I believe both versions of the LPs had all the band members listed (I"m too lazy to dig out my seventies LP right now), and no Frey of any kind....

The Surf label bootleg doesn't list him either--though I can't remember if it lists one or two rhythm guitarists. There's two on the cover, though.

IvanP
... "they decided to release something with sound effects and other crap; it had something to do with hot rods and dragsters. It screwed it all up."

I really don't mind it at the beginnings and ends of the songs--it's only when it drowns out the music that it gets frustrating. ESPECIALLY on "High Voltage." (Thanks for not putting that in the Aguanauts version, Bill!)

I guess it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to guess that some of those songs got re-titled, then, based on his reaction to the album's uh, "concept."

It'd be cool if someone could get him to open up about it like Randy Holden did, both in the interview that ended up on the old SG101 site and also this one: http://www.furious.com/PERFECT/randyholden.html.

-Warren

That was excessively violent and completely unnecessary. I loved it.