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I am trying to get the most out of my 63 RI Reverb Unit and wanted to
get some ideas of the optimum setting for the tank. My rig is 62 RI
Jazzmaster, MXR Micro Amp, Reverb Unit into a 73 Twin Reverb. My tank
has all NOS tubes, AT7s and a 6K6 power tube. I am in a band that is
classic surf. My current settings are Tone 4, Dwell 8-10 and Mix 5-6.
I do find it hard to turn the tone past 4 without getting an ice
pick treble. What setting are best for the classic surf thing.
Thanks
Mark
I like the ventures' sound for a classic surf tone.
On one of their old albums from my collection (can't
remember which, all my vinyl is in boxes) they used
tone-masters. The sound is great, but the reverb
isn't there . . . surf music without reverb? My
point being, the setting your describing might be too
much reverb. It only takes a little to make your tone
more surfy, but overall, surf is how you play more
than what you use.
I had a RI Reverb unit a couple years back, with a
point to point '59 RI bassman and my 62 jazzmaster,
and I use to crank the tone up to about 8 or 9 but
left the dwell and mix relatively low (3-5). I like
that really picky sound, but I wouldn't say ice picky
. . . its much warmer than ice in fact. I also don't
crank my guitar to ten, usually set somewhere between
6-8, so I loose a little tone in the end but I got a
lot to spare. The cranked tone made the reverb
really stand out, while the lower dwell and mix kept
the sound from getting too muddy. In my opinion,
those fender units have too much reverb. Using the
settings you've described, I'd say you got too much to
get that classic tone (I use this term, but I'm not
sure exactly which classic surf vibe you're going for,
ie garage, western, dick dale, etc. For the record I
like the spaghetti-western/garage style, songs like
the theme from black saddle and newer stuff, bands
from the Estrus label).
Another classic tone helper might be to change out the
reissue pickups (if you have the Japanese re-issue,
I've never played one of the American ones and they
probably have great pickups) and put in something more
like the old jazzmasters have. I don't like the
re-issues at all because of their choice of pickups.
I heard the pickups their using are basicly strat
pickups with a few mods, not the 60 rev single coils
like on the old ones. I think Seymour Duncan makes a
couple different kinds of replacement pickups for a
jazzmaster.
Just play around with your reverb unit until you get
that sound you're looking for. Listen to some of the
surf music you like and see what separates their tone
from the sound you don't like. I really love the tone
on all the Satan's Pilgrims albums (At Home With
Satan's Pilgrims, is my favorite surf album of all
time) and I know they use fender outboards. If you
haven't heard 'em, check them out. If you don't like
it . . . you might not like surf music (thats how the
guy at my local indy record store got me to buy their
first album and I can't get enough of 'em).
Sorry for such a long winded response, but I love to
write and I love surf music. The Curse of the English
Major! Hey that could be my new band name . . . or
not.
Damon
--- markdtafuri <> wrote:
> I am trying to get the most out of my 63 RI Reverb
> Unit and wanted to
> get some ideas of the optimum setting for the tank.
> My rig is 62 RI
> Jazzmaster, MXR Micro Amp, Reverb Unit into a 73
> Twin Reverb. My tank
> has all NOS tubes, AT7s and a 6K6 power tube. I am
> in a band that is
> classic surf. My current settings are Tone 4, Dwell
> 8-10 and Mix 5-6.
> I do find it hard to turn the tone past 4 without
> getting an ice
> pick treble. What setting are best for the classic
> surf thing.
>
> Thanks
> Mark
>
>
>
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On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, markdtafuri wrote:
> I am trying to get the most out of my 63 RI Reverb Unit and wanted to
> get some ideas of the optimum setting for the tank. My rig is 62 RI
> Jazzmaster, MXR Micro Amp, Reverb Unit into a 73 Twin Reverb. My tank
> has all NOS tubes, AT7s and a 6K6 power tube. I am in a band that is
> classic surf. My current settings are Tone 4, Dwell 8-10 and Mix 5-6.
> I do find it hard to turn the tone past 4 without getting an ice
> pick treble. What setting are best for the classic surf thing.
Try varying between 5-5-5 and 6-6-6. Put the Jazzmaster in the middle
setting. Set the amp as follows: bass around 6-10, middle 0-3, treble
5-10. The 'wet' reverb 'ping' is mostly created by the treble
frequencies, so the more treble you have, the more of that wet sound
you'll have. Of course, it'll also be more piercing, so you have to find
a nice balance between the two. dial in as much as possible where your
ears are still comfortable - and then dial in a bit more! Remember: it's
gotta hurt the people in the front row. :}
Seriously, the above reverb settings are dialed in by people like Evan
Foster and Deke Dickerson, and that's good enough for me. That's what I
used for most of my time with the Space Cossacks when I wanted the
Astronauts/Chantays sound.
Ivan
I got a lot of the "ice pick" piercing taken out of my reverb unit by
switching to NOS tubes. Hmmm...you have done that too. Typically I
set mine at 6-6-6 and use 7-7-7 or 7-8-8 to go over the top.
--- In SurfGuitar101@y..., "markdtafuri" <mark.d.tafuri@l...> wrote:
> I am trying to get the most out of my 63 RI Reverb Unit and wanted
to
> get some ideas of the optimum setting for the tank. My rig is 62
RI
> Jazzmaster, MXR Micro Amp, Reverb Unit into a 73 Twin Reverb. My
tank
> has all NOS tubes, AT7s and a 6K6 power tube. I am in a band that
is
> classic surf. My current settings are Tone 4, Dwell 8-10 and Mix 5-
6.
> I do find it hard to turn the tone past 4 without getting an ice
> pick treble. What setting are best for the classic surf thing.
>
> Thanks
> Mark
On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Damon wrote:
> I like the ventures' sound for a classic surf tone.
> On one of their old albums from my collection (can't
> remember which, all my vinyl is in boxes) they used
> tone-masters. The sound is great, but the reverb
> isn't there . . . surf music without reverb? My
> point being, the setting your describing might be too
> much reverb. It only takes a little to make your tone
> more surfy, but overall, surf is how you play more
> than what you use.
well, there's some debate about this, but most people have come to an
agreement that the Ventures were not a surf band. They played a few surf
songs, but you cannot call their sound surf anymore than you can call the
Shadows' sound surf. Even the Ventures used outboard reverb units when
they really tried to sound like surf music - just listen to Diamond Head
or WDR '64.
BTW, given that Fender Tonemaster amps only came out during the nineties,
the Ventures didn't use them on any of their old albums. Who knows what
they used in studio? In '65 though they used blonde Fender Showman amps
without reverb for live gigs. The last time i saw them live they used
blonde Tonemaster amps, with the exception of Don Wilson, who used an
Ampeg head with a huge built-in reverb that he would turn up on songs like
Pipeline.
So, gotta have reverb for true surf music....
Ivan
You are absolutely correct sir. Those amps were not
tonemasters, but blond bassmans or showmans or some
head cab fender thingy. Not my point, but good catch.
My point was that they used non-reverb amps, without
reverb units and I totally disagree with the idea that
the Ventures are not a surf band, but one that just
did surf songs. I think of them as a surf band that
"branched out" and did other stuff. I don't know
much, if anything about Ventures history, so I may be
totally wrong . . . I'm sure someone can tell me what
the Ventures were when they started, beside "The Most
Instrumental Band in Rock N' Roll" as their album
reads. I would never say The Ventures aren't surf.
They certainly were influential for my surf guitar
endeavors and the first instrumental guitar album I
bought (at a gas station no less) was a tape called
something like "Venture do the Hits," anyway it had
Walk Don't Run and Pipeline (Chantays wrote that
right?). I learned all the songs and told my guitar
teacher to teach me to play like those guys. I was
13. I'm 24 now. Don't listen to much Ventures
anymore, I prefer more surfy instrumental, but they
helped bring me to where I am as a musician today. In
other words, I won't put down the Ventures by labeling
them "not surf," and THAT WAS A PUT DOWN, because
thats all the instrumental guitar or surf music a lot
of people know.
I also think that surf music, or any music for that
matter, is all about how you play . . . not about
gear. The gear is just something for those of us who
can be bothered . . . and I can be . . . to fool
around with and discuss, but the best surf guitar
setup is at the very least debatable. I'll agree that
reverb is good for surf, some might say reverb makes
surf, but I must believe, that there is more to it
than gear.
Damon
--- IVAN PONGRACIC <> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Damon wrote:
>
> > I like the ventures' sound for a classic surf
> tone.
> > On one of their old albums from my collection
> (can't
> > remember which, all my vinyl is in boxes) they
> used
> > tone-masters. The sound is great, but the reverb
> > isn't there . . . surf music without reverb? My
> > point being, the setting your describing might be
> too
> > much reverb. It only takes a little to make your
> tone
> > more surfy, but overall, surf is how you play more
> > than what you use.
>
> well, there's some debate about this, but most
> people have come to an
> agreement that the Ventures were not a surf band.
> They played a few surf
> songs, but you cannot call their sound surf anymore
> than you can call the
> Shadows' sound surf. Even the Ventures used
> outboard reverb units when
> they really tried to sound like surf music - just
> listen to Diamond Head
> or WDR '64.
>
> BTW, given that Fender Tonemaster amps only came out
> during the nineties,
> the Ventures didn't use them on any of their old
> albums. Who knows what
> they used in studio? In '65 though they used blonde
> Fender Showman amps
> without reverb for live gigs. The last time i saw
> them live they used
> blonde Tonemaster amps, with the exception of Don
> Wilson, who used an
> Ampeg head with a huge built-in reverb that he would
> turn up on songs like
> Pipeline.
>
> So, gotta have reverb for true surf music....
>
> Ivan
>
>
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On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Damon wrote:
> My point was that they used non-reverb amps, without
> reverb units and I totally disagree with the idea that
> the Ventures are not a surf band, but one that just
> did surf songs. I think of them as a surf band that
> "branched out" and did other stuff. I don't know
> much, if anything about Ventures history, so I may be
> totally wrong . . . I'm sure someone can tell me what
> the Ventures were when they started, beside "The Most
> Instrumental Band in Rock N' Roll" as their album
> reads. I would never say The Ventures aren't surf.
The Ventures predated surf music. Their first records were released in
'60. It is generally agreed that the first surf songs were Dick Dale's
"Let's Go Trippin'" and around the same time the Belairs'
"Mr. Moto" (neither of them featuring reverb on the lead guitar,
BTW). The Ventures were quick to cash in on the surf fad, as they did
with every other fad. Given that most of surf music was instrumental, it
was a good fit. But the Ventures did not start off playing surf music,
nor did they play anything close to surf music after '67, when they
started cashing in on the psychadelic and heavier sounds. There's the
Ventures history in a nutshell. Now, who's to say EXACTLY how you define
a surf song. I love the Ventures, and they had plenty of songs that sound
like surf music to me, even when they labeled it space music! But
whatever. They were from Seattle, and around before surf music.
> other words, I won't put down the Ventures by labeling
> them "not surf," and THAT WAS A PUT DOWN, because
> thats all the instrumental guitar or surf music a lot
> of people know.
That's pretty silly. It was not meant as a put down, but as a simple
fact.
> I also think that surf music, or any music for that
> matter, is all about how you play . . . not about
> gear. The gear is just something for those of us who
> can be bothered . . . and I can be . . .
True. But can you play surf music with a violin, a viola, a cello and a
contrabass? I think we would all agree that you can play Miserlou with
those instruments until you're blue in the face, and it won't be surf
music. Similarly, the sound of a heavily reverbed lead guitar is one of
the most recognizable characteristics of surf music. Must all surf music
have it? No, I don't think so. And must you always use Fender
gear? Again, I don't think so. But most bands that don't have these
things do not sound very good to me. In the case of the Ventures, it
wasn't about the gear, and lack of reverb - it was much more about their
history and progression and intentions. Which had a passing connection to
surf music. No matter what the masses may think.
Ivan
On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, IVAN PONGRACIC wrote:
> The Ventures predated surf music. Their first records were released in
> '60. It is generally agreed that the first surf songs were Dick Dale's
> "Let's Go Trippin'" and around the same time the Belairs'
> "Mr. Moto" (neither of them featuring reverb on the lead guitar,
Oops. I meant to say that both of these songs came out in '62. Surf
music didn't really start producing hits until '63 and a bit in
'64.
Ivan
The Ventures played some surf numbers but they were not a surf band. I
would consider them a "guitar instrumental band." They, along with other
guitar instrumental acts (the Fireballs, Link Wray, etc....) surely
influenced the surf bands but as Ivan pointed out, they predated the surf
stuff. Once the fender reverb was released, it (along with fender guitars)
was featured on virtually all of the surf stuff and became synonymous with
surf music. There's no doubt that the Ventures could play surf music, and
play it well, they just weren't a surf band.
At 12:29 PM 2/21/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>You are absolutely correct sir. Those amps were not
>tonemasters, but blond bassmans or showmans or some
>head cab fender thingy. Not my point, but good catch.
>My point was that they used non-reverb amps, without
>reverb units and I totally disagree with the idea that
>the Ventures are not a surf band, but one that just
>did surf songs. I think of them as a surf band that
>"branched out" and did other stuff. I don't know
>much, if anything about Ventures history, so I may be
>totally wrong . . . I'm sure someone can tell me what
>the Ventures were when they started, beside "The Most
>Instrumental Band in Rock N' Roll" as their album
>reads. I would never say The Ventures aren't surf.
>They certainly were influential for my surf guitar
>endeavors and the first instrumental guitar album I
>bought (at a gas station no less) was a tape called
>something like "Venture do the Hits," anyway it had
>Walk Don't Run and Pipeline (Chantays wrote that
>right?). I learned all the songs and told my guitar
>teacher to teach me to play like those guys. I was
>13. I'm 24 now. Don't listen to much Ventures
>anymore, I prefer more surfy instrumental, but they
>helped bring me to where I am as a musician today. In
>other words, I won't put down the Ventures by labeling
>them "not surf," and THAT WAS A PUT DOWN, because
>thats all the instrumental guitar or surf music a lot
>of people know.
>
>I also think that surf music, or any music for that
>matter, is all about how you play . . . not about
>gear. The gear is just something for those of us who
>can be bothered . . . and I can be . . . to fool
>around with and discuss, but the best surf guitar
>setup is at the very least debatable. I'll agree that
>reverb is good for surf, some might say reverb makes
>surf, but I must believe, that there is more to it
>than gear.
>
>Damon
>--- IVAN PONGRACIC <> wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, Damon wrote:
> >
> > > I like the ventures' sound for a classic surf
> > tone.
> > > On one of their old albums from my collection
> > (can't
> > > remember which, all my vinyl is in boxes) they
> > used
> > > tone-masters. The sound is great, but the reverb
> > > isn't there . . . surf music without reverb? My
> > > point being, the setting your describing might be
> > too
> > > much reverb. It only takes a little to make your
> > tone
> > > more surfy, but overall, surf is how you play more
> > > than what you use.
> >
> > well, there's some debate about this, but most
> > people have come to an
> > agreement that the Ventures were not a surf band.
> > They played a few surf
> > songs, but you cannot call their sound surf anymore
> > than you can call the
> > Shadows' sound surf. Even the Ventures used
> > outboard reverb units when
> > they really tried to sound like surf music - just
> > listen to Diamond Head
> > or WDR '64.
> >
> > BTW, given that Fender Tonemaster amps only came out
> > during the nineties,
> > the Ventures didn't use them on any of their old
> > albums. Who knows what
> > they used in studio? In '65 though they used blonde
> > Fender Showman amps
> > without reverb for live gigs. The last time i saw
> > them live they used
> > blonde Tonemaster amps, with the exception of Don
> > Wilson, who used an
> > Ampeg head with a huge built-in reverb that he would
> > turn up on songs like
> > Pipeline.
> >
> > So, gotta have reverb for true surf music....
> >
> > Ivan
> >
> >
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
At 12:29 21/02/02 -0800, you wrote:
> I'll agree that
>reverb is good for surf, some might say reverb makes
>surf, but I must believe, that there is more to it
>than gear.
>
>Damon
One of the reasons why I left my settings on the Cowabunga list on "web only".
All those discussions about gear I can't afford or can only dream about...
all I know is that Link Wray is one of the greatest ever when it comes to
instrumental rock IMO and he used thrift-store guitars...
90
Well Ivan, you sure know your Ventures. But I would
disagree with your dates for the birth of surf music.
I don't think that there is a "First Surf Song," music
doesn't work like that. More of a gradual
developement of the instrumental guitar scene from the
fifties through the invention of the outboard reverb
tank (it was invented with Dick Dale in mind, was it
not?) I think that reverb was invented then used by
surf bands, instead of the invention of reverb
creating the musical style as your dates seem to
indicate. I would argue that, Link Wray was doing
some pretty surfy instrumental work in the late 50's.
But again, my definition (and I use the term loosely)
is much more broad than yours.
I do agree with you on your other point, it's not surf
without guitar. Sure some sax leads are fine, but all
that's icing on the cake. So I will restate my point
in a different way. Surf music is not about what kind
of GUITAR gear you use, that isn't to say that a synth
guitar all tweaked by technology sounding like a Moog
is still surf or guitar through 20 distortion pedals
or whatever other extreme you can use to disprove a
relatively simple point, but that all you gotta do is
play with surf style to be a surf guitarist. I won't
even try, but leave you to define surf style in your
own way.
Damon
Footnote: It is surf music's reliance on style above
all else that I love. That why it really pissed me off
this morning when I heard some Steve Vai type was
posting his song for our group to listen to. Steve
Vai, for me is the complete absence of style-just
another paint by number guitar school wanker. Its as
if some out-of-town jackass came to the beach I surf
every day and acted like he owned the place on a
JetSki. What he doesn't know is IT is not about
shredding its about stylin'.
--- IVAN PONGRACIC <> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Feb 2002, IVAN PONGRACIC wrote:
>
> > The Ventures predated surf music. Their first
> records were released in
> > '60. It is generally agreed that the first surf
> songs were Dick Dale's
> > "Let's Go Trippin'" and around the same time the
> Belairs'
> > "Mr. Moto" (neither of them featuring reverb on
> the lead guitar,
>
> Oops. I meant to say that both of these songs came
> out in '62. Surf
> music didn't really start producing hits until '63
> and a bit in
> '64.
>
> Ivan
>
>
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Exactly!!! Link Wray has got style!!!
--- 90 <> wrote:
> At 12:29 21/02/02 -0800, you wrote:
> > I'll agree that
> >reverb is good for surf, some might say reverb
> makes
> >surf, but I must believe, that there is more to it
> >than gear.
> >
> >Damon
>
> One of the reasons why I left my settings on the
> Cowabunga list on "web only".
> All those discussions about gear I can't afford or
> can only dream about...
> all I know is that Link Wray is one of the greatest
> ever when it comes to
> instrumental rock IMO and he used thrift-store
> guitars...
>
>
> 90
>
>
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