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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Gear »

Permalink Bassman VS. Bandmaster VS. Showman

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i know this discussion has probably been thrown around the forums a bit, but how 'bout a thread only dedicated to specific pros and cons and individual specialties of each major fender piggy-back head...

how loud is each amp compared to the other?
which one breaks up the most and earliest?
as far as bass response and treble, and just overall tone, do these amps sound the same or completely different?

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This thread is going to become a mess.

The following opinions are based on ONLY the blackface circuits. Brownface is another creature.

how loud is each amp compared to the other?
Not too much louder. Bassman is louder than the showman until the showman hits its gain stage. In other words, bassman on 4 is louder than Showman on 4. Of course headroom is the name of the game which the Showman wins, but at what price?

which one breaks up the most and earliest?
Bandmaster then Bassman, then Showman. Again head room.

as far as bass response and treble, and just overall tone, do these amps sound the same or completely different?

Completely different. Showmans are sterile to me until they get to AT LEAST 5-6 and they bloom at 7. Bassmans sound good at most volume. I get more bass response out of a bassman. Showmans are really bright to me.

Showmans are great but I give the edge to the Bassman. Bandmasters are great as well but I feel the blackface ones aren't quite as good.

Yeah, this would be a good thread. I do remember a similar one awhile back but I couldn't find it using the search.

Also, I'm planning on buying a Bassman this weekend. It's a blackface "Fender Electric Instruments" so while I'm guessing it's a 1964, is there any way to tell if it's the AA864 circuit without pulling it apart? It's a hour away so I won't see it in person until I go get it but the guy selling it has been really good about answering questions so far. That being said I'd like to ask without tipping him off about AA864 being more rare/early.

Thanks
-Ted

Ted, unless you already own a Bassman and just want to upgrade the circuit you shouldn't worry about it being AA165 or AB165. They sound great even if the circuit supposedly isn't very good.

I've got a '64 Bassman (white knob, blonde circuit but BF cosmetics), a '66 Bandmaster, and a '68 Dual Showman (AB763).

I'd say my Bassman breaks up before the Bandmaster or the Showman, but I suppose it's not a true BF.

The Bandmaster is sweet but at moderate volumes (4 to 6), played prettyclean. My Bassman dirties up quicker, with a bit of break-up starting around 4, but sweetening up around 5 or 6.

The Dual Showman really doesn't come into its own until you crank it a bit. At lower volumes, there are a lot of other amps that will sound better. But put the Showman on a bigger stage in a bigger room and open it up a bit, and wow (or maybe "pow" is more like it), especially through a pair of JBLs!

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Josh all blackface CBS heads have the same circuit AB763

Tremolux 35watts
Bandmaster 40watts
Bassman 50watts
Showman 85watts

I own a pre CBS 1962 brownface Bandmaster and man oh man it has tone tone tone my favorite amp overall yeah I thought it was the Showman that would be a main and favorite amp for me but WRONG! my 62 bandy has clean clean tone and head room it is loud at 4 on the volume just like my Showman and yes my bandy is stock, it's also going to depend on the speaker wattage Jake plays through a '64 '65 Bassman and uses low wattage speakers of 30-35 watts now thats going to make any head break up way sooner, any of the above models will rock your socks off but the Tremolux if your not worried to much about wattage is a good little head, but any of the other three are going to be killer just remember and keep in mind the speakers have to be a higher wattage to where they will not break up sooner and the higher the wattage on the speaker the louder and warmer they get at louder volumes, 50 watts is the perfect meduim for a speaker and very versatile no matter what you throw at it from Tremolux to Showman.

The Bandmaster would be a good choice it's between a Bassman & Showman it doesn't have the mid control on the vibrato side as the Showman does. The Bandmaster is basically a Showman the only difference is the wattage and as mentioned no mid control on the vibrato channel, cool thing about the Bandmaster is it has 2 extra 6L6 holes to mod it to a 4 6L6 amp ofcourse you would need to change out the OT's, Bandmaster and Showman have the same chassis.

BF pre-CBS and CBS Bandmasters, Bassmans are more common then Showmans you'll be able to find a good pirced bandy on Ebay
on the other hand Tremolux heads don't come up that offten and if they do come up for sale the owners want bank.

My main amp pre-CBS 1962 stock Bandmaster
image

'64 Bassman AA864
image

'66 Dual Showman with 2x12 cab
image

-Kyle

Beyond The Surf YouTube channel
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Last edited: Feb 13, 2008 22:50:21

Kyle's Bandy is sweet. Mike from my band was a brown bandy as well. I'm of the opinion that anything brownface smokes blackface. less bright, tighter sounding.

Rio, I personally wouldn't compare your bassman to your other amps. It isn't blackface. It is brownface. A 6G6-B. One of the most famous circuits of all-time. A true classic.

Kyle is right about my speakers. I use a pair of 30-35 watt speakers. Reissue Jensen C12Qs. Nothing special. I don't get breakup until the volume is turned very high. How high? I dont' know. Never turned it up past 5. I use a clean boost to get me to lead volume. I'm guessing it puts me at 8-10 somewhere. Not too much breakup on the single notes. A chord is going to sound dirty. I think my clean boost breaks it up a little as well.

JakeDobner
Kyle's Bandy is sweet. Mike from my band was a brown bandy as well. I'm of the opinion that anything brownface smokes blackface. less bright, tighter sounding.

There is nothing like the tone and juice of a brownface amp on oh man oh man and that killer harmonic/modulated vibrato and presence control pure heaven.

-Kyle

Beyond The Surf YouTube channel
Beyond The Surf Instagram
The Verbtones @ Instagram
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The Verbtones @ bandcamp

JakeDobner
difference

Kyle is right about my speakers. I use a pair of 30-35 watt speakers. Reissue Jensen C12Qs. Nothing special. I don't get breakup until the volume is turned very high. How high? I dont' know. Never turned it up past 5. I use a clean boost to get me to lead volume. I'm guessing it puts me at 8-10 somewhere. Not too much breakup on the single notes. A chord is going to sound dirty. I think my clean boost breaks it up a little as well.

My friend you have some kickin' ass tone going with your Bassman I love it!
the best I have heard yet!

-Kyle

Beyond The Surf YouTube channel
Beyond The Surf Instagram
The Verbtones @ Instagram
The Verbtones @ Facebook
The Verbtones @ bandcamp

Jake, I hear you & agree, my Bassman isn't the BF circuit, and yeah, it is sweet!

As are all the amps under discussion, I might add (sweet, that is)

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JakeDobner
Kyle's Bandy is sweet. Mike from my band was a brown bandy as well. I'm of the opinion that anything brownface smokes blackface. less bright, tighter sounding.

Mmmmm...I'll agree with pretty-much everything you've said (Kyle's Bandy being sweet, brownface smoking blackface, less bright)...but...you really think that they are tighter sounding than a blackfaced Fender?

I always thought that the appeal of the brownfaced amps were that they were transitional in both age, circuit design, and tone between the tweed and blackface series. In other words they sound looser (LESS tight) than a blackface yet they don't break up as easily and have more headroom than a tweed...right??

www.apollo4.com

I have a blond Tremolux head, a Blond Bassman and a 65 Showman. There are others but they're not germaine to this discussion. I usually use the Tremolux for smaller gigs because it's a sweet sound by itself but I rarely use just one amp at a time. I usually use the Bassman with whatever setup I use. By itself it stays fairly clean and gets just a bit of hair if I push it. I like adding that tone to the clean sounds from the other amps. The Showman gets loud but the Bassman can keep up with it if I balance the levels. The Showman is used mainly for outside gigs where I can unleash it without damaging anyone's hearing. I can use the Showman alone but it never breaks up. I've normally got one channel dry and then run the reverb tank into the other channel so I can set the level of reverb and mix it with the dry sound. I also jumper the channels on the Bassman to add bottom. I have several cabinets loaded with different speakers. I have Celestions G12H-100s in one of my cabs, a Pair of EVM12Ls in another and another with Celestion G12M-30s. The Showman goes to the EV because they handle the power best although breakup on the 100 watt Celestions is rare. I usually run the Bassman to the 100 watt celestion cabinet. The Tremolux can go to the lower wattage Celestions but I sometimes use them into the EVs. Since I've added a Bass VI to our line up the high wattage handling speakers are getting a workout.

I also love to use my brown Super amp loaded with 2 10" JBLs. That probably has the deepest Trem sound of all my amps and works great in combination with any of the others.

image

There is Surf east of Sepulveda.

On our first Euro tour the promoter (Surfin' Airlines from Belgium) had a few amps for me to choose from. On the first night I used a '65 Showman - I hated it! It was really wimpy sounding, no balls and pretty lifeless. The next night he brought down a '62 Bassman and it sounded amazing! I used it for the rest of the tour and was very happy. Later on the guy from the Killer Bananas told me that that particular Showman sounded bad and had crappy tubes . I also own a '65 bassman, and while not as nice as the '62, it's still a great sounding amp - very dynamic and very musical.

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diceophonic

JakeDobner
difference

Kyle is right about my speakers. I use a pair of 30-35 watt speakers. Reissue Jensen C12Qs. Nothing special. I don't get breakup until the volume is turned very high. How high? I dont' know. Never turned it up past 5. I use a clean boost to get me to lead volume. I'm guessing it puts me at 8-10 somewhere. Not too much breakup on the single notes. A chord is going to sound dirty. I think my clean boost breaks it up a little as well.

My friend you have some kickin' ass tone going with your Bassman I love it!
the best I have heard yet!

Thanks dude. You should hear Mike's 6G6-B though. I played with that head at practice one night. Wow!

Fripperton
image

Fripperton I see some Vox action in the background of your pick what do ya have going there? I love Vox Rock Post a pic of it Very Happy

-Kyle

Beyond The Surf YouTube channel
Beyond The Surf Instagram
The Verbtones @ Instagram
The Verbtones @ Facebook
The Verbtones @ bandcamp

That's a Super Berkeley Tube head about the same as an AC15 it's had the trem circuit removed which gives the preamp a bit more gain. It's got the 2x10 cabinet on the tilt back stand. It's great for that EL84 tone when I want to venture into Shadows territory. I haven't taken any pictures of it yet but I'll try to get some in the next day or so. There's a lot of stuff in front of the speaker cab.

There is Surf east of Sepulveda.

I currently play a '67 Dual Showman and I have previously owned a '66 BF Bandmaster.

I remember my bandy being very "lifeless" sounding and couldn't keep up with my other guitarist's '64 blond BF bandy. That one had major balls! I swapped the OT for a Bassman one, and had it worked on by several techs and it didn't really help. I ended up selling it. I'm sure that if I had spent more time with it and threw some more $$ at it I could have had it up to par.

The Showman is a wrecking machine. It can pulverize anything under 100 lbs within 15 feet Laughing I really dig this rig. I've spent a lot of time getting it in tip top shape and paying more attention to speakers, tubes, etc. As Jake mentioned, it can be a bit on the bright side. There is a fine line there when it can get too bright. I just need to pay more attention to the EQ of both the amp and the tank.

However, I would like to get either a bandy or bassman in the near future because, as stated earlier, at lower volumes I think those two amps can sound a little fuller and have more color and musicality, which would be great for gigs that I can't turn up past 2.5 w/out sending everybody to a hearing specialist.

image

Ryan
The Secret Samurai Website
The Secret Samurai on Facebook

I've actually read somewhere that a bandmaster never gets those "ice picky" highs you get with most tube amps...is this true?

The Tremblors on Facebook!

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Phantom1 -> Also, I'm planning on buying a Bassman this weekend. It's a blackface "Fender Electric Instruments" so while I'm guessing it's a 1964, is there any way to tell if it's the AA864 circuit without pulling it apart? It's a hour away so I won't see it in person until I go get it but the guy selling it has been really good about answering questions so far. That being said I'd like to ask without tipping him off about AA864 being more rare/early.

Unfortunately, the only way to tell one Bassman from another is to open it up and hope for the best. The AA864 circuit is relatively rare. If you get one, hold onto it. AA165s and AB165s are much more common, but even within these circuits you'll see all sorts of crazy stuff. So, get it if the price is right and if it's an AA864, consider it laignappe.

Josh - > I've actually read somewhere that a bandmaster never gets those "ice picky" highs you get with most tube amps...is this true?

I'd chalk that up to "urban legend." It could be that the person that said that liked how the amp broke up earlier (smaller output transformer) than say a Super Reverb or something like that. Meanwhile, a Bandmaster can be made to sound just as ice picky as any Fender amp. One way to tame that ice picky tone on any of these amps is to introduce a little more midrange. There are all sorts of ways to do this.

PhatTele
One way to tame that ice picky tone on any of these amps is to introduce a little more midrange. There are all sorts of ways to do this.

PhatTele:
Could you go into some more detail on this? Might be really useful.
Thx.

Ryan
The Secret Samurai Website
The Secret Samurai on Facebook

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