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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Gear »

Permalink New Fender Jaguar HH

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Reverbdrips wrote:

If you look at a guitar as a whole, we all know swapping parts changes how they sound. That happens because wood, metal, and various other materials have different weight and vibrate differently.

Here is an extreme example -

The guitar neck mates perfectly with the body and all four screws are well mounted, add string tension and strum a chord. Let’s call this the perfect sound we can expect this neck and body can achieve without adding the variable of swapping bridges or other parts.

Now take a piece of cardboard, rubber, etc and put it between the neck and body. The tone or sound of that guitar will fundamentally change.

The same concept applies to pickups and how they are mounted. Because a pickup has characteristics of a microphone they can behave in a similar way. Direct mounting a pickup to wood sounds different than it suspended in the air with springs or under foam.

The first time I’d heard of this was watching a video on G.E. Smith talking about his favorite tele that was the base of his signature model produced by Fender. He preferred the tone of the pickups in old lap steels from Fender which were very similar to Tele bridge pickups. He would take those pickups and mount them in the bridge of a tele and not get the tone he was after. It wasn’t until he cut his bridge in half and then direct mounted the pickup to the body did he get the sound closer to the lap steel tone. This is why his signature model has the half bridge and pickup direct mounted.

This happens in other guitar manufacturers as well, Anderson and MotorAve to name a few.

Sorry if my snarky comment of “tone sucking” was taken the wrong way. Plenty of guitars have foam mounted under the pickups and that has its own sound, neither good or bad.

I hear what you are saying and agree.
Hollow body jazz boxes need to resonate tone and not allow the pickup mounting to interfere with the wood top, so the pickup is suspended and "floats'
For that Telecaster example, it makes sense that for sustain on the bridge to mount direct into the wood better than suspended below the bridge plate.

I really have no idea how a standard Jaguar pickup is attached other than screwed to the wood.
There has to be some kind of height adjustment so there must be a rubber tube similar to a Telecaster neck.
Or is the body cavity the perfect depth that the screwed connections of PU bottoms out?

I ordered those Stew Mac foam springs because I think if this refit is going to work I need adjustment.
Heck if after the height is determined why not epoxy wood shims to screw into more solid?
Seeing as I believe most PU are adjustable height I don't think there is going to be much of an issue.

All the jags I’ve had apart use foam to adjust the pup height. My main consternation for your guitar was the missing wood that you’ll be replacing with only foam.

I also haven’t had a standard jag body next to a factory HH routed jag body and don’t know how much difference in depth the routes are. It may not be an issue, or you may end up having a hole lot of foam in your guitar. Wink

Reverbdrips wrote:

All the jags I’ve had apart use foam to adjust the pup height. My main consternation for your guitar was the missing wood that you’ll be replacing with only foam.

I also haven’t had a standard jag body next to a factory HH routed jag body and don’t know how much difference in depth the routes are. It may not be an issue, or you may end up having a hole lot of foam in your guitar. Wink

I think if the cavity is too deep for using those Stew Mac foam springs then I'll shim up the pocket bottom with epoxy set quality hardwood.
I certainly won't pack it with foam unnecessarily.
Appreciate your feedback!

Reverdrips has me aware of the HH routing depth and how that may be an issue switching to Fender Jag 62'.
I just did a probe depth measurement next to both HHPUs.
After subtracting the pick guard,the wood pocket depth is 7/8"

Here is a Jag pic with dimensions.
0.685" PU depth.
All things considered, assumed PU height same as the HH setup, I should have 1/2" clearance between bottom of Jag62 and wood depth.
The foam/spring range of that Stew Mac is at least that. Could be tight.

What's the experience of Jag owners who have checked the foam depth being used?

image

Last edited: Nov 02, 2022 08:02:35

OK, reality check!
Reverbdrips is right, the pocket depth routed for the Jag for HH humbuckers are DEEPER than most likely the routing for the Single coils '62 fit.

According to the dimensions I measure off the current factory setup and where I need to go to EQUAL PU height from strings are as follows in diagram.

I need to ADD a 1/4" wood stock shim to inside of pocket, probably epoxy set in place. Then use the Stew Mac Foam/Spring bases, which would then have compression support.

I do appreciate the observation made by Reverbdrips of switching out Humbuckers to Single coil.

image

Last edited: Nov 02, 2022 10:29:33

IceratzSurf wrote:

OK, reality check!
Reverbdrips is right, the pocket depth routed for the Jag for HH humbuckers are DEEPER than most likely the routing for the Single coils '62 fit.

According to the dimensions I measure off the current factory setup and where I need to go to EQUAL PU height from strings are as follows in diagram.

I need to ADD a 1/4" wood stock shim to inside of pocket, probably epoxy set in place. Then use the Stew Mac Foam/Spring bases, which would then have compression support.

I do appreciate the observation made by Reverbdrips of switching out Humbuckers to Single coil.

It looks to me, like you are going about this the right way, and I predict that you will be successful. I will be watching with great interest.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

Reverbdrips wrote:

If you look at a guitar as a whole, we all know swapping parts changes how they sound. That happens because wood, metal, and various other materials have different weight and vibrate differently.

Here is an extreme example -

The guitar neck mates perfectly with the body and all four screws are well mounted, add string tension and strum a chord. Let’s call this the perfect sound we can expect this neck and body can achieve without adding the variable of swapping bridges or other parts.

Now take a piece of cardboard, rubber, etc and put it between the neck and body. The tone or sound of that guitar will fundamentally change.

The same concept applies to pickups and how they are mounted. Because a pickup has characteristics of a microphone they can behave in a similar way. Direct mounting a pickup to wood sounds different than it suspended in the air with springs or under foam.

The first time I’d heard of this was watching a video on G.E. Smith talking about his favorite tele that was the base of his signature model produced by Fender. He preferred the tone of the pickups in old lap steels from Fender which were very similar to Tele bridge pickups. He would take those pickups and mount them in the bridge of a tele and not get the tone he was after. It wasn’t until he cut his bridge in half and then direct mounted the pickup to the body did he get the sound closer to the lap steel tone. This is why his signature model has the half bridge and pickup direct mounted.

This is great stuff! But I have some questions. Only for discussion, I am not trying to argue or prove anything. I love to be proven wrong. I'm just not seeing your evidence. But I am dense so it could be that! I am also fascinated by this stuff and welcome new information.

I still don't understand what holds a floating jag pickup in place. Even if it's in a pickguard there are still screws holding them down.

I'm curious how pickups have any characteristics similar to a mic, other than producing a tiny AC signal when a vibration (air or metal) is present. One moves a coil around a magnet, and the other moves a string over a magnet with a coil around it. On a mic air vibrations move a tiny element (diaphragm) that is moving a metal coil around a magnet, creating a charge that we call the signal. The main variable is the pick up pattern and its orientation and proximity to the sound source.

With pickups and strings, I imagine magnetic flux patterns don't care about anything other than how they interact with the moving metal to make a charge, not the style they are mounted. Their orientation and pattern is constant, which moves us to examining the string density and proximity differences between steel and regular guitars. Besides other design elements like steel plates or claws that change the flux patterns, those are the only differences. So what characteristics are the two things sharing? Mounting doesn't seem like one. Foam or no foam the magnets are held in a constant place relative to the strings. Please correct anything I got wrong.

My understanding and experience is that the unplugged acoustics of a guitar has no bearing on its electrical signal. The pickups only see the vibrations so any additional resonance is not in the signal.

Also how would putting a rubber layer under the heel change the tone? Absorb highs making it duller? I can see where it might make the vibrations dissipate more quickly, since they'd die at that rubber layer on the heel and not go on transferring to the body. But that would only affect the sustain right? All sorts of materials are used for shims without changing the tone at all. I have not put a layer of rubber under a neck heel so I freely admit I am just guessing.

Seems like your example is more about proximity than mounting and materials, since steel guitar strings are so much further from the magnets. I also don't understand how you can cut a bridge in half. I guess I am just dense. Photos would help me with that one.

Dan

Daniel Deathtide

I agree Dan. Magnetic pickups do one thing, and one thing only; they detect the motion of a vibrating string. If a magnetic pickup is detecting anything else, there is a problem.

Stratocasters suspend their pickups from the pickguard, and some Strats have a “bathtub route” which allows any normal pickup configuration to be installed: SSS, SSH, or HH. Now, it is possible that the fact that there is
less wood in the body could have an effect on sustain, or other aspects of timbre, but I wouldn’t lose any sleep over that possibility.

This is far different from placing rubber in a bolt-on neck joint. The neck of a guitar does affect the transmission of string vibration, and a neck joint with a compliant material that would dampen vibration could have an effect on the sustain. That would have no effect upon the pickup, but if the strings are vibrating for a shorter sustain period, of course, that will be reflected in the output of the amp.

Everything plays a role in the output of an electric guitar, but not necessarily to such an extent that it would be perceptible. If I were to modify the body of one of my Telecasters to reduce the mass of wood, it would change the sound produced, but would it change the sound enough to be noticeable/perceptible? In my experience, it takes a lot of this sort of change to be perceptible.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

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