synchro
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 4124
Not One-Sawn, but Two-Sawn . . . AZ.
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Posted on Jun 14 2021 09:11 AM
edwardsand wrote:
synchro wrote:
That’s sort of the enigma of the Jaguar. They were all but forgotten in the market and the Alternative and Grunge guys bought them for a steal. But they weren’t really made for chunking out power chords, so many of these guitars were modified into something hybrid, neither fish nor fowl.
I guess I count as one of those Alternative guys - I got my sunburst '67 for $300 in 1985, and it's been my favorite guitar ever since. One thing is that I've played short-scale guitars from the beginning - my first 6 string was a cheap Japanese Mustang-like guitar (as seen in my pic), so the 24 inch scale seems natural to me. I'm fine with other scales as well.
I can play a Jaguar and be fairly comfortable, but it feels a little cramped to me. Three of my guitars are 24.6” Gretsch, and I’m ok with these. My Teles are 25.5 (and strung very lightly), and I find these quite comfortable, as well. As a rule, I’m not picky about scale length, and 0.6” is hardly worth losing any sleep over.
— The artist formerly known as: Synchro
When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.
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LHR
Joined: Aug 23, 2006
Posts: 2123
The jungle
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Posted on Jun 19 2021 12:33 PM
Somewhere in the bowels of this site is a fairly spicy debate between me and Zak regarding the differences between the Jaguar and Stratocaster pickup. I think I may have convinced him that they were identical. The details are foggy about that and he was notoriously stubborn. Love that guy, wish he were still around.
Anyhow, they are the same pickups. No different in terms of coil bobbin or turns or anything. There is a claw thingy. Makes no real difference, IMHO.
The reason they sound different is down to scale length, primarily of the instrument.
cirecc wrote:
The jazzmaster pickup is very different with a wide flat winding
the difference between strat and Jaguar pickups are more minor. The jag pickup is taller and therefore has more windings generally. The claw supposedly focuses/narrows the pickup’s field though I’m not so sure that’s reality.
Strat pickups and Jaguar pickups could sound very similar. I built a strat with Jaguar pickups years ago and it basically just sounded like a strat. I think most of the difference in tone comes from the difference in bridges, wiring, and scale length.
— SSIV
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synchro
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 4124
Not One-Sawn, but Two-Sawn . . . AZ.
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Posted on Jun 19 2021 04:46 PM
LHR wrote:
Somewhere in the bowels of this site is a fairly spicy debate between me and Zak regarding the differences between the Jaguar and Stratocaster pickup. I think I may have convinced him that they were identical. The details are foggy about that and he was notoriously stubborn. Love that guy, wish he were still around.
Anyhow, they are the same pickups. No different in terms of coil bobbin or turns or anything. There is a claw thingy. Makes no real difference, IMHO.
The reason they sound different is down to scale length, primarily of the instrument.
cirecc wrote:
The jazzmaster pickup is very different with a wide flat winding
the difference between strat and Jaguar pickups are more minor. The jag pickup is taller and therefore has more windings generally. The claw supposedly focuses/narrows the pickup’s field though I’m not so sure that’s reality.
Strat pickups and Jaguar pickups could sound very similar. I built a strat with Jaguar pickups years ago and it basically just sounded like a strat. I think most of the difference in tone comes from the difference in bridges, wiring, and scale length.
Now that you mention it. I recall something bout that. Actually, that was the exact info I was seeking.
So, for the sake of discussion, let’s assume that Jag pickups and Strat pickups are similar enough that any difference from the pickup’s contribution would be below the threshold of perception. Then the sound would have to come down to scale length, bridge and/or tailpiece design or other characteristics of the instrument.
I’ve always loved Strats, and I’d be perfectly satisfied owning one, except for the fact that I’ve always felt that they can easily get lost in the mix when played clean in a live setting. I’ve known other players with the same opinion. But they are great sounding guitars. Clapton gets a wonderful sound, but he’s not going for a clean sound.
My CIJ ‘66 Jaguar RI sounded great, but it was a very bright sound. I don’t say this to provoke controversy, but it struck me as being like an unusually bright Telecaster. This is not all that surprising, because back in the ‘60s, Jaguars were sometimes used by Country lead players. When I had mine, I usually played it through the Boss/Fender Deluxe Reverb pedal, which added just a touch of the natural overdrive of a Blackface DR. I did this to reduce the “ice pick effect”. (The OEM Japanese pickups were shrill and harsh. I ended up going with a set of Seymours, but it was still highly treble with these pickups, but at least it was usable, without having to crank the tone knob down.)
There’s no hurry about any of this; any project I undertake is contingent upon my collection of a debt. I believe I will collect, but it might take a while. I have to confess that I have a 54+ year fascination with Jaguars. I had the ‘66 CIJ RI and I wish I had kept it, but I can’t change the past. I tried a Vintera Modified Jaguar, but it didn’t work at all for me. If I try another one, I want to do it right … or would I be happier with a Strat? 
— The artist formerly known as: Synchro
When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.
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edwardsand
Joined: Jun 29, 2018
Posts: 660
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Posted on Jun 20 2021 11:07 AM
I would not say jaguar and strat pickups are identical in sound. Similar construction for sure, but Jaguars have magnets that protrude a bit from the base, and of course there is the claw. I don't see the difference in sound coming down to the scale length. I put Strat pickups in a Mustang, and it didn't make it sound like a Jaguar - they still sound like Strat pickups.
It would be really interesting to compare the sounds of the Fender and Squier versions of the Cyclone II. The original Fender used 3 Jaguar pickups, while the current Squier model uses strat-type pickups. Those have a 24.75" scale so you split the difference in scale length, and they have a strat tremolo, so you don't have the length of strings behind the bridge adding the Jaguar ghost tones. The Fender version looks cooler because it has racing stripes, so obviously that will make it sound better!
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DeathTide
Joined: Apr 13, 2018
Posts: 1339
New Orleans
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Posted on Jun 20 2021 02:06 PM
LHR wrote:
Somewhere in the bowels of this site is a fairly spicy debate between me and Zak regarding the differences between the Jaguar and Stratocaster pickup. I think I may have convinced him that they were identical. The details are foggy about that and he was notoriously stubborn. Love that guy, wish he were still around.
Anyhow, they are the same pickups. No different in terms of coil bobbin or turns or anything. There is a claw thingy. Makes no real difference, IMHO.
The reason they sound different is down to scale length, primarily of the instrument.
I’m very interested in your evidence! Please find that thread for me, I’m super interested. This is a great question for OSGers!
I have a hard time swallowing your theory! Don’t the magnetic fields of the magnets get affected by the claw? Which would mean the EMF detected by the magnets are different right off the bat. I think I read that the claws “contain” or “focus” the EMF from the strings, which limits what current the magnets “feel”. I feel the claw is the main difference, and that the construction of the pickups themselves are very similar. Same magnet length (1/2”?) and similar number of coils.
If you put claws on all strat pickups, would it sound identical? I can’t imagine that’s true, but maybe it is?
I think the bridge with it’s bevy of sympathetic tones and only having two pickups also make it distinct from a strat.
I put that mod on an AV strat and with only the bridge + neck it really sounds jaguar-ey. Different still, but it gets really close. So much that on tape one might not hear it. So I don’t think the scale really makes any real difference.
But I’m just a forum reader and a player, what do I know!
— Daniel Deathtide
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SilverFlash
Joined: Jul 14, 2015
Posts: 472
Near Atlanta, GA
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Posted on Jun 20 2021 02:26 PM
DeathTide wrote:
LHR wrote:
Somewhere in the bowels of this site is a fairly spicy debate between me and Zak regarding the differences between the Jaguar and Stratocaster pickup. I think I may have convinced him that they were identical. The details are foggy about that and he was notoriously stubborn. Love that guy, wish he were still around.
Anyhow, they are the same pickups. No different in terms of coil bobbin or turns or anything. There is a claw thingy. Makes no real difference, IMHO.
The reason they sound different is down to scale length, primarily of the instrument.
I’m very interested in your evidence! Please find that thread for me, I’m super interested. This is a great question for OSGers!
Hi Deathtide, Here you go:
PSA Kirkland WA Guitar Center S-500 for $399
— -Tim
MyYouTubeChannel
My Classic Instrumental Surf Music Timeline
SSS Agent #777
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edwardsand
Joined: Jun 29, 2018
Posts: 660
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Posted on Jun 20 2021 05:20 PM
Another issue to bring up in order to complicate things is which particular strat pickups and jaguar pickups do you want to compare? There are a ton of options out there, especially for strat pickups. For the limited number of pickup variants I am familiar with, I think the bridge+neck combo does sound very similar on both, and the neck pickups can also be comparable. It's really the bridge pickups that stands out as different.
I've got a test bed guitar that I use to try out pickups in different positions and different pot values. I've got some strat pickups I could test but no spare Jaguar pickups to make a comparison right now.
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synchro
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 4124
Not One-Sawn, but Two-Sawn . . . AZ.
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Posted on Jun 21 2021 01:31 AM
This is exactly the sort of back and forth I was hoping for. I’m getting a lot of food for thought from this.
Here are my impressions so far:
Strat and Jaguar pickups bear more than a degree of similarity.
The “Claw” may serve to focus the magnetic field, but there is far from universal acceptance that this makes a discernible difference in sound output.
Making an apples to apples comparison of pickups is complicated by the fact that pickups specs change.
Scale length, bridge design, tailpiece design, and the string length between the bridge and tailpiece may play a significant role in the sonic differences between Strats and Jaguars.
A steel plate on the bottom of a Strat pickup can “stiffen” (my term) the sound considerably.
While it hasn’t come up in the replies to this thread, there is also the matter of the pot values. The 1 meg pots on a Jaguar are bound to contribute to the differences in sound. To the best of my understanding, they should favor a stronger treble response.
For reasons that evade me, I’ve been playing my Teles of late, and letting my various Gretsch guitars have some time off. Any of my four Gretsch can get a very serviceable Surf sound, but the feel is different.
As with almost all choices, there is a degree of compromise. A Jaguar is certainly a great choice for a Surf guitar, but it has its limitations. A Strat is also a great choice, and very versatile, but, while it can come close to a Jaguar, it is not an exact, drop-in replacement.
I’m loving the input on this subject.
— The artist formerly known as: Synchro
When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.
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Samurai
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2141
Kiev, Ukraine
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Posted on Nov 29 2021 12:16 AM
synchro wrote:
CrazyAces wrote:
One of the biggest differences in a Strat and Jag pickup is the metal claw on the Jag pickup.
While Leo devised this to try to help with noise, interference, hum, it changes the inductance of what is otherwise a Strat pickup in windings and geometry.
This is what accounts for the difference in sound between the two pickups.
You could get closer to the Jag sound, pickup wise, by adding baseplates to your Strat pickups.
This would help to approximate the Jag sound, scale length aside.
https://www.fralinpickups.com/product/prepped-baseplate/
That makes a lot of sense. The “claw” undoubtedly has an effect, increasing the inductive reactance of the pickup. In the Gretsch world, there are Filtertrons with screws for pole-pieces and Supertrons, which are identical, except for the fact that there is a pair of solid bars, which add some inductive reactance and make the pickup sound a bit stronger.
I don’t currently have a Strat, but I have been thinking in terms of adding another guitar to the collection. A Strat with a bit more authority might do the trick and make the acquisition that much easier. I know that there are Strat models that have a way to use the neck and bridge pickups simultaneously, without the middle pickup being on, via the S1 switch.
I’ve got S1 switch on one strat and blender on the other and neck+bridge sounds pretty similar to Jaguar’s neck+bridge. But my strats got pretty hot bridge pickups.
— Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine
New Single is out!
https://waikikimakaki.bandcamp.com/album/rhino-blues-full-contact-surf-single
Waikiki Makaki
https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki
Lost Diver
https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin
Last edited: Nov 29, 2021 00:27:13
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synchro
Joined: Feb 02, 2008
Posts: 4124
Not One-Sawn, but Two-Sawn . . . AZ.
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Posted on Nov 29 2021 09:00 AM
Samurai wrote:
synchro wrote:
CrazyAces wrote:
One of the biggest differences in a Strat and Jag pickup is the metal claw on the Jag pickup.
While Leo devised this to try to help with noise, interference, hum, it changes the inductance of what is otherwise a Strat pickup in windings and geometry.
This is what accounts for the difference in sound between the two pickups.
You could get closer to the Jag sound, pickup wise, by adding baseplates to your Strat pickups.
This would help to approximate the Jag sound, scale length aside.
https://www.fralinpickups.com/product/prepped-baseplate/
That makes a lot of sense. The “claw” undoubtedly has an effect, increasing the inductive reactance of the pickup. In the Gretsch world, there are Filtertrons with screws for pole-pieces and Supertrons, which are identical, except for the fact that there is a pair of solid bars, which add some inductive reactance and make the pickup sound a bit stronger.
I don’t currently have a Strat, but I have been thinking in terms of adding another guitar to the collection. A Strat with a bit more authority might do the trick and make the acquisition that much easier. I know that there are Strat models that have a way to use the neck and bridge pickups simultaneously, without the middle pickup being on, via the S1 switch.
I’ve got S1 switch on one strat and blender on the other and neck+bridge sounds pretty similar to Jaguar’s neck+bridge. But my strats got pretty hot bridge pickups.
In theory, that should do the trick.
— The artist formerly known as: Synchro
When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.
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Samurai
Joined: Mar 14, 2006
Posts: 2141
Kiev, Ukraine
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Posted on Nov 29 2021 09:57 AM
synchro wrote:
Samurai wrote:
synchro wrote:
CrazyAces wrote:
One of the biggest differences in a Strat and Jag pickup is the metal claw on the Jag pickup.
While Leo devised this to try to help with noise, interference, hum, it changes the inductance of what is otherwise a Strat pickup in windings and geometry.
This is what accounts for the difference in sound between the two pickups.
You could get closer to the Jag sound, pickup wise, by adding baseplates to your Strat pickups.
This would help to approximate the Jag sound, scale length aside.
https://www.fralinpickups.com/product/prepped-baseplate/
That makes a lot of sense. The “claw” undoubtedly has an effect, increasing the inductive reactance of the pickup. In the Gretsch world, there are Filtertrons with screws for pole-pieces and Supertrons, which are identical, except for the fact that there is a pair of solid bars, which add some inductive reactance and make the pickup sound a bit stronger.
I don’t currently have a Strat, but I have been thinking in terms of adding another guitar to the collection. A Strat with a bit more authority might do the trick and make the acquisition that much easier. I know that there are Strat models that have a way to use the neck and bridge pickups simultaneously, without the middle pickup being on, via the S1 switch.
I’ve got S1 switch on one strat and blender on the other and neck+bridge sounds pretty similar to Jaguar’s neck+bridge. But my strats got pretty hot bridge pickups.
In theory, that should do the trick.
And not only in theory, I’ve Jaguar to compare) but bridge and neck alone are really different. The only thing I miss in Jaguar is stat middle pickup sound that I love)
— Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine
New Single is out!
https://waikikimakaki.bandcamp.com/album/rhino-blues-full-contact-surf-single
Waikiki Makaki
https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki
Lost Diver
https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin
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