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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Surf Musician »

Permalink Hats Off To The Rhythm Players

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Yeah, Lead players get all the glory, but instrumental guitar music would be nowhere without the rhythm players. I have to admit to never being really interested in plying rhythm, myself, but have been recording some classic first wave tunes and other guitar instros and decided to finally learn and perform the rhythm parts.

I have been having no problems with the leads, but am really struggling with the rhythm parts. Pipeline, for example. The lead is no problem at all, but those muted rhythm lines, which are so essential to the song are quite a workout. And playing chords- it is a different kind of skill to get all of your fingers changing position at the same time an maintaining the tempo.

Whether it is chord or single note rhythm tracks, the repetitive nature causes my mind to start wandering, but I am determined to stick with it and maintain focus.

I just wanted to take a minute to pay my respects to those truly talented and dedicated souls that keep the song driving forward. I am truly humbled by your talents.

I think it is an important discipline to learn and will make me a much better guitarist in all respects.

Last edited: Jul 01, 2020 07:39:31

I’ve always appreciated 4 piece bands where the guitarist trade off on lead n rhythm.

Jeff(bigtikidude)

The mind wandering is a real thing. This is so easy....where am I? Groove is everything. The leads are no fun if the rhythm isn't in the pocket.

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And apparently an endangered species according to recent posts.

bigtikidude wrote:

I’ve always appreciated 4 piece bands where the guitarist trade off on lead n rhythm.

This!

Actually, to me, the concept of "rhythm" and "lead" players is bogus. If you play guitar, you should play the whole guitar. My opinion. Leave some room for everybody to shine. In fact, I've had to occasionally push that point to get guys I'm playing with to step up to the plate. Every one has been worthy.

The leads are no fun if the rhythm isn't in the pocket.

And yet more evidence that every guitar player should spend plenty of time in the "rhythm guitar farm".

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Last edited: Jul 01, 2020 20:51:32

DaveMudgett wrote:

And yet more evidence that every guitar player should spend plenty of time in the "rhythm guitar farm".

I'd extend that to say every guitar and bass player should spend plenty of time in the "drum farm"

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I don't see how a person can be a good lead player if they aren't also a good rhythm player. I make it a point to learn all three guitar parts to a tune - because - I usually end up showing some lazy ass bass player that there's more (at times) to a surf tune than just the root and fifth.

Rhythm is the last part of the "engine room" that has to sync up with drums and bass. The last thing I need at a rehearsal or gig is to have to WATCH what each player is doing.

I've also tried the LGSS (Lone Guitar Slinger Syndrome)- i.e. no rhythm guitar. I don't care how well the lead guitar plays, it's ALWAYS better with a rhythm guitar. Gravy is a second guitar or keys.

All MHO, of course..
J Mo'

Good rhythm players are not easy to find. The last person I worked with that was any good at it played very simply, and I loved it. But it can be a very high form of the musical art. Bruce Welch and Don Wilson come to mind, as practitioners that did a great job of providing solid and interesting rhythm parts.

I’m sort of in the line gunslinger camp, guitar, bass and drums. I like it, because I get to play lead lines, rhythm parts and spend most of my time juggling both. When I am in a strict rhythm mode, I tend to use a lot of triads. It gives some space between the bass and the guitar, which contributes to a nice openness in the overall sound. Add a good bassist to the mix and this gs can get interesting. (I’m blessed to be able to play with an excellent bassist.)

I’ve always been fascinated with the rhythm work of Freddie Green. He was the long-standing rhythm guitars of a very famous Surf band, called the Count Basie Orchestra. They were so far ahead of their time that Surf music hadn’t even been invented yet, so they had to play Big Band Swing, while they waited. Smile Green played three note rhythm chords, usually switching voicings every beat. There was a bass line woven into the voicings he used and he could drive the band like nothing else on earth. The Basie Band was renowned for its incredibly tight sense of rhythm, and I think that was 100% to Green’s credit.

Ranger Doug, from Riders in the Sky, has an instructional video and a book about this approach to rhythm. While it’s not anywhere near the centerline of Surf music, I’ve found that some of this information can come in very handy. By sticking to three note voicings, spread across the bottom four strings, you can move from change to change very rapidly.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

synchro wrote:

Good rhythm players are not easy to find. The last person I worked with that was any good at it played very simply, and I loved it. But it can be a very high form of the musical art. Bruce Welch and Don Wilson come to mind, as practitioners that did a great job of providing solid and interesting rhythm parts.

I’m sort of in the line gunslinger camp, guitar, bass and drums. I like it, because I get to play lead lines, rhythm parts and spend most of my time juggling both. When I am in a strict rhythm mode, I tend to use a lot of triads. It gives some space between the bass and the guitar, which contributes to a nice openness in the overall sound. Add a good bassist to the mix and this gs can get interesting. (I’m blessed to be able to play with an excellent bassist.)

I’ve always been fascinated with the rhythm work of Freddie Green. He was the long-standing rhythm guitars of a very famous Surf band, called the Count Basie Orchestra. They were so far ahead of their time that Surf music hadn’t even been invented yet, so they had to play Big Band Swing, while they waited. Smile Green played three note rhythm chords, usually switching voicings every beat. There was a bass line woven into the voicings he used and he could drive the band like nothing else on earth. The Basie Band was renowned for its incredibly tight sense of rhythm, and I think that was 100% to Green’s credit.

Ranger Doug, from Riders in the Sky, has an instructional video and a book about this approach to rhythm. While it’s not anywhere near the centerline of Surf music, I’ve found that some of this information can come in very handy. By sticking to three note voicings, spread across the bottom four strings, you can move from change to change very rapidly.

It takes a very gifted guitarist to play lead and rhythm at the same time. Stevie Ray Vaughan comes to mind as someone that could shift seamlessly between a rhythm line and lead. The first time that I saw him live I was shocked that he was the only guitar player on stage. I think he got that from his idol Jimi Hendrix.

Dick Dale could also do it.

I'll be happy when I can just play a competent rhythm part. I think it will be a while before I can do both.

I am a huge Grant Green fan and have almost all of his Blue Note LPs.

You guys and your rules. I like your endpoint (about players) but the path to it is just silly. Yes they’re great when they’re great (Phantom Surfers!) but I don’t see how you can say it’s an essential part. (Trashwomen!) That’s just absurd. Bands can be great or terrible with or without a rhythm guitar.

I agreed it’s a highly skilled position and is often under-appreciated.

Daniel Deathtide

raylinds wrote:

synchro wrote:

Good rhythm players are not easy to find. The last person I worked with that was any good at it played very simply, and I loved it. But it can be a very high form of the musical art. Bruce Welch and Don Wilson come to mind, as practitioners that did a great job of providing solid and interesting rhythm parts.

I’m sort of in the line gunslinger camp, guitar, bass and drums. I like it, because I get to play lead lines, rhythm parts and spend most of my time juggling both. When I am in a strict rhythm mode, I tend to use a lot of triads. It gives some space between the bass and the guitar, which contributes to a nice openness in the overall sound. Add a good bassist to the mix and this gs can get interesting. (I’m blessed to be able to play with an excellent bassist.)

I’ve always been fascinated with the rhythm work of Freddie Green. He was the long-standing rhythm guitars of a very famous Surf band, called the Count Basie Orchestra. They were so far ahead of their time that Surf music hadn’t even been invented yet, so they had to play Big Band Swing, while they waited. Smile Green played three note rhythm chords, usually switching voicings every beat. There was a bass line woven into the voicings he used and he could drive the band like nothing else on earth. The Basie Band was renowned for its incredibly tight sense of rhythm, and I think that was 100% to Green’s credit.

Ranger Doug, from Riders in the Sky, has an instructional video and a book about this approach to rhythm. While it’s not anywhere near the centerline of Surf music, I’ve found that some of this information can come in very handy. By sticking to three note voicings, spread across the bottom four strings, you can move from change to change very rapidly.

It takes a very gifted guitarist to play lead and rhythm at the same time. Stevie Ray Vaughan comes to mind as someone that could shift seamlessly between a rhythm line and lead. The first time that I saw him live I was shocked that he was the only guitar player on stage. I think he got that from his idol Jimi Hendrix.

Dick Dale could also do it.

I'll be happy when I can just play a competent rhythm part. I think it will be a while before I can do both.

I am a huge Grant Green fan and have almost all of his Blue Note LPs.

Stevie Ray also admired Kenny Burrell’s playing and borrowed from him, to some extent. Chitlins Con Carne is a perfect example, although there seems to be some Wes Montgomery ides in there, too.

Poor old Grant Green. He was so incredibly good and died so incredibly young. I listened to a lot of his stuff, back in the day.

DeathTide wrote:

You guys and your rules. I like your endpoint (about players) but the path to it is just silly. Yes they’re great when they’re great (Phantom Surfers!) but I don’t see how you can say it’s an essential part. (Trashwomen!) That’s just absurd. Bands can be great or terrible with or without a rhythm guitar.

I agreed it’s a highly skilled position and is often under-appreciated.

There’s something to be said for both approaches. I like being in a trio setting and like the openness of just guitar, bass and drums. I’m listening to SRV’s The Sky Is Crying as I write this. The sound is perfect. Obviously. Vaughan was exceptionally skilled at working in this setting.

A few months back, I was listening to a Jazz station on Sirius XM and a song came on which was Tenor Sax, Bass and Drums. It was amazing. The sax player could interpret the changes as he saw fit and it was just his line, bracing itself against the double bass.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

I played rhythm gtr for years. It's a great way to add texture to any song. For my surf writing the rhythm guitar is key because of it helps complement the melody line and I'm big on counter melody. I, personally, get kind of bored listening to bass, guitar and drums. Probably cuz growing up my brother (who can wail on guitar) played in a 3 piece with lots of Hendrix vibe. After a while I just wanted more.

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I am a huge Grant Green fan and have almost all of his Blue Note LPs.

Ditto on GG. Beautiful player. Beautiful groove.

So, from a different genre I learned a huge lesson from Steve Morse. This was about 1981 or so when he came to my jazz school as a guest artist. His groove was so strong and solid playing leads by himself it was if he was laying down the drums while playing those single note lines - unaccompanied. You could feel the rest of the music because his command of the groove and the material was strong, strong, strong.

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martinblasick wrote:

I am a huge Grant Green fan and have almost all of his Blue Note LPs.

Ditto on GG. Beautiful player. Beautiful groove.

So, from a different genre I learned a huge lesson from Steve Morse. This was about 1981 or so when he came to my jazz school as a guest artist. His groove was so strong and solid playing leads by himself it was if he was laying down the drums while playing those single note lines - unaccompanied. You could feel the rest of the music because his command of the groove and the material was strong, strong, strong.

Steve Morse- another monster player with chops to spare but always plays tastefully. If you haven't heard it, check out his CD from the 80s called Southern Steel. I haven't played it in years but will give it a spin this weekend.

synchro wrote:

Stevie Ray also admired Kenny Burrell’s playing and borrowed from him, to some extent. Chitlins Con Carne is a perfect example, although there seems to be some Wes Montgomery ides in there, too.

Back before I was really into jazz guitar I remember hearing SRV do Stang's Swang on Couldn't Stand The Weather an was amazed by what a great jazz sound he could get. A lot of Kenny Burrell in that one. I have all of Burrell's Blue Note LPs. Big Grin

Last edited: Jul 04, 2020 07:31:08

Marty and I switch back and forth playing leads or rhythm in The Men from S.U.R.F. We even do this during medleys of songs like Mr. Moto and Walk Don't Run. Marty plays Walk, I do Moto. It's fun, keeps the songs interesting and allows us to show off. This requires balancing tone and volume on the fly as the parts switch back and forth. Easy to do once you know how to set it up.
That said, in my view it's important that guitar players can play either part of the song.

Rock
A Man from S.U.R.F.
http://menfromsurf.com

raylinds wrote:

synchro wrote:

Stevie Ray also admired Kenny Burrell’s playing and borrowed from him, to some extent. Chitlins Con Carne is a perfect example, although there seems to be some Wes Montgomery ides in there, too.

Back before I was really into jazz guitar I remember hearing SRV do Stang's Swang on Couldn't Stand The Weather an was amazed by what a great jazz sound he could get. A lot of Kenny Burrell in that one. I have all of Burrell's Blue Note LPs. Big Grin

Stevie Ray was somewhat the last bastion, when the music world went bat-feces crazy over synths, circa 1983. Had we not lost him, nearly 30 years ago, he might have provided an interesting bridge between Jazz guitarists born in the ‘20s and ‘30s and guitarists of his generation, which is also my generation. It’s interesting to speculate on just where he would have gone, musically, had that chopper crash not happened.

If you are interested, there’s a piece on JazzTimes website with an interesting history of Burrell. The video clip of how playing is interesting, but I recommend fast forwarding past the introduction read by the guy dressed up like a delivery driver. Smile https://jazztimes.com/features/profiles/kenny-burrell-from-detroit-with-love/

With the love of Surf guitar, which brings all of us to this meeting place, it’s easy to never take note of the events which led up to the electric guitar finding its voice as a melodic instrument. Without people like Kenny Burrell, Charlie Christian, Oscar Moore and Les Paul, we probably would never have heard of Duane Eddy, Dick Dale etc.

Chord melody, hardening back even to the age of tenor banjo, drove my interest in the guitar. The combining of rhythm and melody is a relative rarity, among instruments. Keyboards, guitars, banjos, mandolins, etc. are about it for that world. I see it as the best of two worlds, rolled into one. You have to really admire some of the players that brought it along and left us such a fine musical legacy.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

raylinds wrote:

synchro wrote:

Stevie Ray also admired Kenny Burrell’s playing and borrowed from him, to some extent. Chitlins Con Carne is a perfect example, although there seems to be some Wes Montgomery ides in there, too.

Back before I was really into jazz guitar I remember hearing SRV do Stang's Swang on Couldn't Stand The Weather an was amazed by what a great jazz sound he could get. A lot of Kenny Burrell in that one. I have all of Burrell's Blue Note LPs. Big Grin

Stang’s Swang was recorded on a Johnny Smith Model, BTW. Strats are great, but they aren’t that great. I used to play a Johnny Smith, and miss it at times, but I actually prefer the sound of my Guild T400 (think Duane Eddy Model). The Smith model was, essentially, an L-5C with Super 400 inlays, a Super 400 headstock, a 25.0” scale length. The fingerboard extension was flush with the top, instead of being elevated, which gave it incredible strength in the upper register. Because of this, I can imagine that Stevie Ray was able to get an interesting mix between the warmth and body of a Jazz axe and a tight top end which serves the Blues sensibility of the piece.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

How the heck did the rhythm guitar thread discussion get to Stevie Ray Vaughn?
Rhythm guitar is key to surf! Hats off!

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How the heck did the rhythm guitar thread discussion get to Stevie Ray Vaughn?

This -

It takes a very gifted guitarist to play lead and rhythm at the same time. Stevie Ray Vaughan comes to mind as someone that could shift seamlessly between a rhythm line and lead.

and perhaps this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWw55XhTehg - makes it not so outlandish to utter SRV and surf in the same breath.

My earlier point was about the strict separation of lead vs. rhythm guitar, not an argument for the absence of rhythm guitar. Good rhythm guitar is essential for lots of styles of music, not just surf.

On the point about Kenny Burrell influencing SRV - I remember way back when, Dick Cavett was questioning Jimi Hendrix about something or other, and Jimi responded something like - I'm just trying to sound like Kenny Burrell - parapharasing, it's been 50 years. Kenny is one of the coolest cats in jazz land, and his comping (jazz for rhythm guitar) and chord-melody playing is at a very, very high level. My bet is that Stevie (who was around my age) saw that same interview and went digging for Kenny Burrell records, as did I and probably hundreds or thousands of others.

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