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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Surf Music General Discussion »

Permalink Surf Music, Surf Rock or Instrumental Rock - does a style description justify all the hate?

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After playing and writing about surf music now for 20 years, I noticed a trend to get into very defined style descriptions lately. As common on the internet (wether it's facebook, forums or the comments of news) a lot of times the discussion turns into a heated argument, with people digitally screaming at each other, asking them to leave groups, telling them not to have an idea of the genre and so on.

Usual points of getting angry are:

The Shadows are not a surf band
It's surf music, not surf rock
this is not "real" surf music"
you can't get a proper surf sound with .....(insert your most hated reverb pedal, amp or guitar)

While I understand that you can think a lot about questions like this and it might be fun and very important to yourself, it makes me a little sad that a scene as small as ours is getting cut up in different groups and people are getting angry at each other.
I've seen people leave facebook groups or forums because they constantly got put down about their opinion or musical taste or ideas.

So the question is:
Do all these topics justify all the hate, aggression and putting other people down-attitude?

Personally I think it doesn't

Here are a few thoughts about the reasons why:

Style descriptions are usually not made up by the musicians, who create and work in a genre. Surf Music, Surf Rock, Instrumental Rock are just names that try to describe a certain type of music that has a lot of similar features - guitar sound, harmony, a way of composing, a way of playing melodies. a historic context, a geographic context and so on. Personally I find it very hard to make a clear distinction between bands that are surf, surf rock, instrumental rock.

  • All these genres originate from the late fifties / early sixties.
  • They all have a rock'n roll influence.
  • Harmony wise they all use the blues scheme or rather simple diatonic chord changes in major or minor.
  • They all use a rather clean guitar sound.
  • They all put the focus on simple, recognizable melodies instead of using long, complex solo parts like in jazz, blues or fusion music.
  • These melodies are often played on the low strings of the guitar without a lot of bluesy guitar techniques like bending
  • they use very little improvisation
  • Artists like The Shadows, Dick Dale, Duane Eddy, Davie Allan and many more all had a faible to include some exotic elements in their music. Arabian, Indian, Tribal and Hawaiian sounds were featured in the compositions without really getting deep into exotic /foreign music. Mostly western scales, instruments and techniques were used to create a middle eastern / exotic sound
  • all these artists were interested in using modern technology of the day: New guitars and amplifiers and their possibilities like distortion, volume, trem bar. They also tried new effects (reverb unit, tape delay, oil tanks as a reverb, studio technology (plate reverb)
  • all these bands cross over into each others territories. Link Wray covered the Shadows' Apache, the Lively Ones played Link Wray, Joe Meek and Duane Eddy Songs, Dick Dale played Hot Rod Music after Surf went out of fashion and all modern surf bands usually play instrumental rock songs along with surf covers.
  • Surf Rider is considered a classic surf song, but was written by guitarist Nokie Edwards of The Ventures (who are not a surf band, if you belive the heated discussions). The Ventures played it on their Surfing Album. So the same track, with the same chords and melody, can be a surf tune and an instrumental rock tune?
  • Here's a Paul Johnson quote from an interview I did in the early 2000s with him: "All of those associations are kind of after the fact, because the music was already fully formed. We were playing the music of the rock instrumental bands, which was not associated with surf. From my experiences, when the Bel Airs started to throw dances, that was the year the surf craze hit. It was just an accident that we were living at the beach and playing this music and the surfers were the ones that came to the dances and they started calling it surf music."

  • As a musician you don't sit around and start composing music that perfectly fits one style. Usually you play and what comes out, comes out. Most people have very different influences they picked up during certain times in their life and it's not very conscious, if you play something that comes from Duane Eddy, Dick Dale, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Jimi Hendrix, Wes Montgomery, Sex Pistols or any other artist that comes to your head. Otherwise it starts becoming an ordered composition, like advertising music, movie music or an educational track.

  • last but not least the amount of reverb, echo or distortion doesn't really define a composition. Personally I just choose what I like and in general you can turn any kind of melody in any kind of style by using a sound, groove and clichés that fits this style. If you have a wah pedal and a sixteenth note funk in the background, it'll sound funky. If you have a surf beat and a twangy guitar, it starts sounding surfy. A high gain guitar, powerchords and an 80s sound turn a melody into hard rock. It’s just like clothes - a suit, jeans or a leather overall don’t make another person out of you, you just look different.

Anyway, just my two cents.

I would be interested, if you agree that a more friendly way to talk and discuss with each other, would be helpful for the surf community.
I definitely think this would help - we are not enough people Smile

Last edited: Jun 08, 2020 14:54:31

I used to call it surf rock and now I call it surf music. It was kind of a subconscious decision from being corrected on here. Or maybe it was on Facebook...

So the question is:
Do all these topics justify all the hate, aggression and putting other people down-attitude?

Names/labels don’t matter to me at all. If someone calls it surf music, surf rock, reverb music (just made that up) at least they are listening to the music (Most likely). I usually say I play surf, but if someone uses another term that’s fine. Seems like a really small thing to get worked up about, but I’m sure that those that do have their reasons. Call it whatever you like around me.

Rev

Canadian Surf

http://www.urbansurfkings.com/

My thoughts on this are pretty complicated.

In general, I think people put too much weight on genres. They shouldn't be a club that a band belongs to, they should be descriptors. A band is not a post-punk band, but they can have a post-punk sound. Music is subjective, people hear different things, and the more genres you attach to something the better you're doing describing it probably.

THAT SAID

Surf is weird. The term is hyper-localized in time and geography, and otherwise they would just be rock instrumentals.

I do think there's some value to separating The Surfaris, The Ventures and The Shadows, etc because they are historically different. I think it's also important not to be a jerk about it. I don't think you find many people that listen to rautalanka but never surf music.

THE REAL ISSUE is that the criteria you described is way too specific compared to what's really being thrown around. The term surf as it pertains to music is quickly losing its usefulness as a descriptor. As somebody that wakes up and peruses the "surf" tag on bandcamp, you'd be lucky if 20% of what you find sounds remotely within the realm of what we're interested. Bands that people under 30 think of when you say surf include Best Coast, Jack Johnson, Surfer Blood, most punk, possibly just whatever has guitar. You get the same results for Surf Rock. Surf Music is actually a lot more tightly disciplined. Instrumental rock is rightfully as unspecific as it sounds.

Without reeling it in a little bit, it gets out of control entirely.

So basically, I think we should focus on what's definitely not surf rather than what's obviously close enough

Storm Surge of Reverb: Surf & Instro Radio

I like to just call it surf. But Hunter brings up a wonderfully dreary insight - all terms become meaningless in this insane era of online “information.”

The term “classic surf” to me means 1st wave. There are amicable ways to discuss opposing viewpoints. A jerk is a jerk no matter what’s being discussed. I am usually that jerk so I should know!

Daniel Deathtide

Quickly stated, the animosity and hostility that occasionally surfaces with regard to genres strikes me as counterproductive. It’s not unique to Surf aficionados, by any means. Some Jazz artists just love to point out that this or that artist isn’t really Jazz ... to which I would answer, “that’s your opinion”.

Here’s my take on it. As the electric guitar and the electric bass changed music, it was no surprise that some instrumentals would come along. Link, Duane and any number of obscure artists came along and used the new sounds of electric guitars and electric basses to take music in a new direction. It should also be pointed out that the world of Country music used the newfound power of the low strings on an electric guitar in a similar manner.

It’s also, IMHO, vital to mention Honky Tonk, because that had a huge influence on the way the guitar was used. Billy Butler was an R&B and Jazz player, but some have called Honky Tonk the Big Bang of Rock n’ Roll guitar. His influence is hard to overestimate. That song will probably never be thought of as Surf, but it has influenced Rock n’ Roll guitar for decades and definitely would have been accessible to the Surf players of the first wave.

The electric guitar was new and everyone was learning its capabilities. Lead players in Rock n’ Roll bands were trying new things and there was a lot of cross pollination across this brand new world. Rock n’ Roll, Country, Blues, Jazz and the music used in Western movies were all influenced by the new voice of the electric guitar and the electric bass guitar, and this continued for some time. I think that finding the absolute headwaters of this river would be very, very difficult, because the stream has tributaries from more than one genre. As with anything electric guitar, one could argue that it goes back to Charlie Christian, but even he got his ideas from some other source.

I happen to like the term Instrumental Rock, but I will quickly agree that is a very broad classification. For the most part, I’ll confine my comments to ‘50s and ‘60s Instrumental Rock, when I use that term, unless I specify differently. Duane Eddy may not be the absolute first, but he characterizes much of what the genre represented at that time. He was also famed for using reverb, specifically by using a water tank as an echo chamber. In many ways, he was the model for the sound which morphed into Surf.

When the early sixties rolled around, the sound of twangy guitar was everywhere in Pop, Rock n’ Roll and Country. Duane Eddy was a starting point, but the sound was used in a lot of places besides Instrumental Rock. We heard it on Sunday nights as as the theme song for Bonanza, along with in countless other TV Westerns. When the Surf craze happened in California, it’s no surprise that the sound of twangy guitars was part of it. This is also the same time that Henry Mancini was gaining notice and he used twangy guitars in his movie songs, not to mention the Tik Tak bass technique of having a Danelectro 6 string bass play in unison with the Double Bass.

But this was also about the time where reverb became accessible to guitarists, and was no longer confined to the studios. Instead of using a water tank, a Fender Tube Reverb or some similar device could be used on a gig. Freed from relying recording engineer, guitarists did the same thing everyone does the first time they get their hands on the controls; they cranked them up to see what happens. Drip; that’s what happened. It became a signature sound of the time, and because there were no vocals, the Instrumental Rock of the early ‘60s was able to employ drip, to just about any degree they wanted.

It’s important to remember that twangy guitars and reverb were not confined to bands playing Surf instrumentals. The Beach Boys used a sound that wasn’t all that different from what was heard in the Surf Instrumentals. It’s hardly a surprise, if you consider the context of the times. It was very common in a lot of music.

But instrumentals happened in other places besides SoCal. The Ventures may not have been part of the Surfing World of SoCal, but they were a force in Instrumental Rock. They did an album of Surf songs and, while the reverb was not quite at the level of The Astronauts, they played those songs quite well. If you had asked me the name of an Instrumental Surf band in 1964, I probably would have said the Ventures. I suspect that most Americans would have agreed. With the exception of people living in SoCal, I doubt that many Americans would have been aware of any distinction between the BelAirs, Dick Dale, the Astronauts, the Trashmen or the Ventures; not to mention any number of local and regional bands that played in the same style. In my hometown, there was a band on the local TV station that played white Fenders (a Jag in the lead, IIRC) and made twangy sounds, and we were landlocked in the American heartland.

Another interesting thing about the Ventures was the song that made them famous, Walk, Don’t Run. Jazz guitarist Johnny Smith took the changes to Softly, as in a Morning Sunrise and made an instrumental that was blazingly fast and ultra clean. The original was not twangy, by any means, and Smith was no Rocker, but after Chet Atkins recorded the song, the Ventures gave it their own touch and made a name for themselves. Now, Surf was nowhere in the picture, but if you played the Ventures version of Walk Don’t Run for the average person, they would probably identify it as belonging to the same category as Surf and many Surf bands cover it. Beyond that, the Ventures gave us Surf Rider, which is the song which put Surf into the public consciousness when it was played within Pulp Fiction.

My first exposure to the Surf genre was probably the Ventures. In keeping with Paul Johnson’s comments, having heard some of this while in the early years of grade school, I, my older sister, nor any one of her friends ever talked about whether something was Surf music or not. We were 1,903 miles from Huntington Beach and, while we thought surfing was cool, we knew a lot more about ice skating. If we heard the occasional Surf Instrumental, we loved it, but to us, Surf music was Jan & Dean, The Beach Boys and almost anything with twangy guitars and a Rock n’ Roll beat. We loved the instrumentals and listened in rapt attention, but I don’t recall anyone making a distinction involving Surf instrumentals and they were never preponderant. BTW, had Duane Eddy or Link Wray come on the radio, we would have liked that just as much.

But I’m leaving out something vital, and that is the fact that The Shadows were doing their own version of Instrumental Rock that, while not exactly Surf, was probably similar enough that the average listener would categorize them as being part of the same thing. Twangy guitars, low string notes, and echo, instead of reverb. It was strikingly well played and well arranged. I would see the Shadows as being quite similar to the Ventures, in that they applied Rock n’ Roll guitar concepts to a variety of songs. I don’t know that they ever played Instrumental Surf songs, but had I heard them on the radio circa the early ‘60s, I would definitely have lumped them in with the same broad category as the Ventures and the various Surf bands.

For a period of time, there were dedicated Surf bands playing a very specific subset of Instrumental Rock and I certainly admire what they accomplished. But they existed in a stream of time and were no more isolated than any other genre. The cadences used had roots in the Blues, and in the case of the Andalusian Cadence, such as Walk, Don’t Run, those changes are thought to trace back to the Ancient Hebrews. Surf music, in its strict definition, happened when a number of events came together; the Instrumental Rock of the late ‘50s, amps with more clean headroom (such as the Brownface Showman), portable reverb units, twangy guitars (such as the Jaguar) and the public becoming aware of Surfing as a sport. Beach and surfing culture may owe much of its popularity to Gidget movies. Had these elements come together somewhat differently we might be talking about Drag Racing Music, Fallout Shelter Music (Cuban Missile Crisis Music) or even Slot Car Music.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

Politely, respectfully...
This thread indicates several who are very much overthinking things.
In the immortal words of Frank Zappa,
"Shut up and play your guitar"

Works for me
J Mo'

No

Hi Synchro, That is a beautiful, well reasoned essay and pretty much reflects my own thoughts on what is surf music. I also agree with Martin (Tikidog), our surf scene is too small to cut up in different groups with people getting angry at each other. I have too much appreciation and admiration for Duane Eddy, Link Wray, The Ventures and The Shadows to kick them out of the surf music club. I know why historically or stylistically they may not meet some heuristics for being "surf music", but they are always welcome under my beach umbrella.

I will say that Facebook makes me sad. I didn't know about the various surf related Facebook sites until about 2 months ago and, honestly, I wish that was still true, there's way too much vapid noise to signal being spewed out there for my taste. I appreciate SG101 where there is thoughtful discussion, such as Martin's question and Synchro's response, enriching my life and increases my knowledge of and appreciation for surf music. As for Facebook, I'll paraphrase King Arthur from Monty Python and The Holy Grail, "Well, on second thought, let's not go to Camelot Facebook. It is a silly place."

-Tim
MyYouTubeChannel
My Classic Instrumental Surf Music Timeline
SSS Agent #777

In general, I don’t really care too much about these distinctions. I would say that, historically speaking, instrumental surf music (my preferred term, for what it’s worth), is reasonably well defined. However, many of the modern bands that people here like and/or play in do not fit exactly into that definition. They usually exhibit a clear influence from that music, but often incorporate other influences, such as spy, spaghetti western, hot rod, eleki, ratalaunka, exotica, garage, fuzz, psychedelia and (increasingly, or so it seems to me) metal. Some, of course, try to be as purist as possible, but many here are generally quite comfortable to consider all of this music under the umbrella of “surf”.

I will say this about The Shadows, though. No one in the UK at the time ever referred to them as surf music, if only because surf music was pretty much unknown here. I’d hazard that no one in the States referred to them as surf music at the time either, since The Shadows were largely unknown there. On the other hand, it’s not at all difficult to hear why people who love surf music also love the music of the Shadows.

Los Fantasticos

SilverFlash wrote:

Hi Synchro, That is a beautiful, well reasoned essay and pretty much reflects my own thoughts on what is surf music. I also agree with Martin (Tikidog), our surf scene is too small to cut up in different groups with people getting angry at each other. I have too much appreciation and admiration for Duane Eddy, Link Wray, The Ventures and The Shadows to kick them out of the surf music club. I know why historically or stylistically they may not meet some heuristics for being "surf music", but they are always welcome under my beach umbrella.

I will say that Facebook makes me sad. I didn't know about the various surf related Facebook sites until about 2 months ago and, honestly, I wish that was still true, there's way too much vapid noise to signal being spewed out there for my taste. I appreciate SG101 where there is thoughtful discussion, such as Martin's question and Synchro's response, enriching my life and increases my knowledge of and appreciation for surf music. As for Facebook, I'll paraphrase King Arthur from Monty Python and The Holy Grail, "Well, on second thought, let's not go to Camelot Facebook. It is a silly place."

Thanks Tim.

At one time, I was very narrow minded about music and had very restricted tastes. But music is a reflection of many things; culture, technology, communications (radio stations preferred to play shorter songs, and all sorts of other contributing factors. The more I look at it, the more amazed I am by what I see.

Our music is influenced by a mandolin craze in the 1890s and by a Belgian Gypsy that played acoustically just before, and during WW II. To me, it’s humbling, because we are in a very advantageous position compared to musicians of the past. What would Mozart think of the things we take for granted?

When I think from such a perspective, the differences between Hank !arvin, Nokia Edwards and Dick Dale seems superficial. What is more, I’m certain that they shared mutual respect for one another.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

Instro is an appealing descriptor for me. I like that it doesn’t tie specifically to the beach cause even tho I live in Los Angeles I don’t actually surf. But I love that awesome guitar sound. And why the heck are the Shadows on the outs? Wonderful guitar music.

I’m starting up my online instro presence and am juggling around these terms even today so that the hashtags are effective.

There should be a special term for artists that incorporate the multiple shades we’re talking about here. Does “instro” have any connotation I’m not aware of?

Squid From Madrid - New Single on Bandcamp
MB Website

I'm not really that implicated in the surf scene but is there really so much hate? I would have thought apathy but that would be the case for all styles of music.

Paul

The Dead Planet Surfers

Synchro - thanks for the long essay...that sums it up pretty good. I also like the fact that you seem to have been around when the original surf movement happened. i think this is the most authentic way to learn about the history of a style - first hand experience. otherwise it gets a tendency to be a reinterpretation of the past.

Martin Blasick - instro is a term i‘m perfectly happy with. it sums up what this genre is all about: roots in the 50s and 60s, high energy, short to the point songs and melodies, a certain coolness and a non noodle around approach, compared to other forms of instrumental rock. i enjoy listening to joe satriani from time to time, but wouldn‘t label him instro.

by the way - i find it very interesting to talk about the differences between the shadows, dick dale and the ventures, but as a few of you said - there a differences, but also A LOT of similarities between them

here‘s what made me get into surf:
The Fenton Weills from Germany... enjoy!
and how do you call that?

Last edited: Jun 09, 2020 02:18:40

"Surf rock" is for kuks. Not such a grievous offense as to justify hate, though.

When I was young I liked instrumental guitar music. My dad had an album of the Fabulous Wailers, which he showed me because I had developed a fondness for the Peter Gunn theme (probably through playing Spy Hunter) and they have a fast version of it called "Gunnin' For Peter."

Anyway, I liked instrumental guitar music as I could find it. Back then it wasn't so easy as it is now.

When I was 16 or so I was at a party where someone was playing a CD of Dick Dale's greatest hits. I heard that and it was all over. Although I had heard Wipeout probably a hundred times already, I had never developed awareness that there was a thing called surf music. Not until hearing that Dick Dale CD. The point I'm trying to build to is this: It seemed totally new and different. Not like the other old instrumental guitar stuff I already new. Definitely its own thing. No way would I have classified it with the likes of the Wailers or Link Wray, if I had been aware of him.

And it definitely wasn't "rock."

Redfeather wrote:

"Surf rock" is for kuks. Not such a grievous offense as to justify hate, though.

When I was young I liked instrumental guitar music. My dad had an album of the Fabulous Wailers, which he showed me because I had developed a fondness for the Peter Gunn theme (probably through playing Spy Hunter) and they have a fast version of it called "Gunnin' For Peter."

Anyway, I liked instrumental guitar music as I could find it. Back then it wasn't so easy as it is now.

When I was 16 or so I was at a party where someone was playing a CD of Dick Dale's greatest hits. I heard that and it was all over. Although I had heard Wipeout probably a hundred times already, I had never developed awareness that there was a thing called surf music. Not until hearing that Dick Dale CD. The point I'm trying to build to is this: It seemed totally new and different. Not like the other old instrumental guitar stuff I already new. Definitely its own thing. No way would I have classified it with the likes of the Wailers or Link Wray, if I had been aware of him.

And it definitely wasn't "rock."

But for me it’s definitely rock! Cause it’ all just rock n’roll, from rockabilly and surf to heavy metal)
Otherwise I do not think I would play it)))
- What do you play?
- Some instrumentаl music..
- emm...

  • What do you play?
  • Surf rock!!!
  • Cooool!

But to be serious, I just would cite the classic:
“ What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

New Single is out!

https://waikikimakaki.bandcamp.com/album/rhino-blues-full-contact-surf-single

Waikiki Makaki

https://linktr.ee/waikikimakaki

Lost Diver

https://lostdiver.bandcamp.com
https://soundcloud.com/vitaly-yakushin

I agree with everyone about not being a jerk. There's no reason to get worked up about it or alienate anyone (which might turn someone off music), and the slope from annoyingly pedantic to proselytizing jerk is slippery and short. That said, at some point shouldn't we speak up to maintain the distinctions between different things? I get all the influences and relationships; spoken about ad nauseam. I'm fine with a loose or only vaguely informed notion of what "surf" is, and it's use as an umbrella term. That doesn't make all things equivalent.

What would I call The Fenton Weills? Pretty dang good, and thanks for that, Martin. I wouldn't call it surf, but I wouldn't correct anyone for calling it surf either. I realize I'm repeating (again), but I don't want to get on someone's nerves or throw cold water on something new they've discovered by intimating that I know more than them and that they need correcting (unless they ask, of course). I personally am always interested in learning about the fine distinctions (to a point) but that's the definition of "nerd." Throw two nerds in a cage and you will get a "nerd battle," but like all human interactions they tend to go over better in person than online.

As many times as this discussion has been had here I wonder if you'd find as many similar occurrences in other genre's discussion pages. If anyone read my entire response, I hope the lower part of your eyeballs didn't dry out.

The Mystery Men?
El Capitan and The Reluctant Sadists
SSS Agent #31

Last edited: Jun 09, 2020 05:50:13

Since the arrival of social media there seems to be a trend to focus on what divides us rather than what unites us.

When you have a conversation with someone in actual real life, you don't (normally) seek out the things you disagree about and argue about them. Do you? You normally identify with something you have in common and talk about that. It's certainly the way to make friends.

Surf music is a small enough genre as it is. There's no need to divide it any smaller, in my opinion.

http://thewaterboarders.bandcamp.com/

Let's just call it 'smurf sock' and get on with making noise with guitar, drums and bass or any other noise making thing you like! Even reverb is optional, I know I'm really cursing in church now.

But hey! In these times there are many more important things to get angry about!

By the way, this is how I cal MY music. And if you don't like it or hate it, that is YOUR free choice!

image

www.alohasluts.com
Aloha Sluts on BandCamp
www.arnyzona.com (my photography)
Aloha Fest on facebook

da-ron wrote:

Surf music is a small enough genre as it is. There's no need to divide it any smaller, in my opinion.

If you were to say that while we were sharing a beer in Livorno and I were to reply, “Ooh, I don’t know about that,” you would know from my expression and from the fact that we’re mates, that I was saying this in jest. If I were to reply like that in this thread, I would appear to be the kind of jerk who likes to start fights online! We can all enjoy a face to face conversation about whether X or Y is surf or not, but online things rapidly escalate, I’m afraid.

Los Fantasticos

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