I have a Line 6 M13 that has various Verb/Echo/Delay models in it:

Tube Echo - EP1

Tape Echo - EP3

Multi-Head - Roland RE-101

Echo Platter - Binson Echorec

Opto Tremolo - 64 Deluxe Reverb

Bias Tremolo - AC-15

63 Spring - 63 Spring

Spring - not described but can make sound just like my Twin

Echo - not described, but Echo w/Verb in one.

I've actually used the Multi-Head one to get as close to the "Apache" echo as I'm going to get.

That one has 4 heads so you can set combinations of what equates to 4 16th notes, and then set a MS value.

I figured that out from watching a video where Mr. Marvin demonstrated the echo - "thump" then we could hear the repeats. So I modelled it after that and it's certainly passable.

So I could use it for other songs (Peace Pipe, Wonderful Land, FBI, and Many of Mystery mostly) if someone could kindly supply the head arrangements and basic repeat time as a starting point - or point to me to videos or even places in the song where they're obvious. Just to save a little hunting around (because I'm going to spend enough time dialing it in).

No one is going to be that critical, but I still want to capture the "vibe".

It seems to me that Pipeline (Chantays) actually has some Tremolo on it - or am I imagining things?

Also I think a lot of us kind of assume that everyone used a 63 Reverb chamber - sure it's on Wipeout - Pipeline has that Drip as does Penetration it seems. But it is on as much as we think it is - Mr. Moto? Endless Summer Theme?

Walk Don't Run I actually used that nameless "Echo" because it sounds to me like there's a bit of slapback (or a heavy early reflection) in the verb tone that's not quite the same as a 63 verb from what I can tell. But if anyone knows for sure what was used I'd like to know.

It helps for me to start with a "base model" and work my way out.

I think I used the Tape Echo for the little solo in Telstar (Tornados) because it had a wow/flutter setting that captured that vibe pretty closely.

The Echorec model is a lovely all-around delay, and the Spring a nice all-around Spring Reverb so I can cover a lot of ground with them.

But if I can find anything more specific about what was used, or what settings were used on various Shadows, Ventures, or other 60s "surf hits" of that decade it would give me a goof starting point - especially anything like "everyone thinks that was a Spring but it was actually a Plate Reverb in the studio.

On top of this, a secondary question - when you use Echo/Delay for a lot of these songs, do you then run that into any kind of Reverb as well (studio reverb).

What I'm doing is playing with Backing Tracks that are fairly authentic and have nice effects on any guitars as well as nice studio verb and compression. I'm playing those back through a nice speaker and will play along with it through a small amp that I've actually used one of the Line 6 models to kind of get that whole "bright, stringy" kind of lo-fi 60s sound (some of which was imparted by Verb and Echo pre-amps, but I'm using the "dry thru" versions of mine which don't color the sound additionally because this other pre-amp is doing it).

But having the guitar coming out of the amp slightly compressed and "in the mix" with verb will probably make it sound slightly more like it too is coming out of the speaker (I could run it all through the computer but don't really have a great interface and that's another piece of gear to bring...

TIA for any advice/experience/details you can offer!

I am very intrigued by groups like The Shadows, The Atlantics, The Jokers, etc. that pushed instrumental music in other areas of the world and how it is different in feel, partly due to the use of echo devices like the Meazzi Echomatic, Klemt Echolette, and Binson Echorec rather than Fender's outboard reverb unit.

This is an informative site: http://www.tvsspecialtyproducts.com/hank-s-echo-units.html

In my bands, we have covered both types of instro plus soundtrack-type tunes and I may use a multi-head echo such as my Boss RE-20 Space Echo and will start to use my Strymon Volante soon. I think context, taste, and intent are everything and since I cannot exactly replicate every guitar tone or effect, I do my best without being overly obsessive about it. Using my Strymon Flint for harmonic tremolo and my '63 reissue tank, for example, are only what I need for the American surf effects and they work for me very well.
If I use both echo and reverb, I will dial-down my Fender reverb unit mix knob unless I really want it swampy on purpose for slow ballad type tunes or Spaghetti Western type stuff.

And I am not adverse to using the odd bit of fuzz for Davie Allan or Ventures 2,000 Pound Bee.

Up here in Vancouver, we don't have many OCD instro aficionados that would call me out on using the "wrong" effect.

Lorne
The Surf Shakers: https://www.facebook.com/TheSurfShakers
Vancouver BC Canada

shake_n_stomp wrote:

If I use both echo and reverb, I will dial-down my Fender reverb unit mix knob unless I really want it swampy on purpose for slow ballad type tunes or Spaghetti Western type stuff.

This is exactly what the Drip Switch was designed for. Instead of having to reach back and dial down your reverb, you can have a preset lower level with a simple toe tap.

Danny Snyder

Latest project - Now That's What I Call SURF
_
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

I'm back playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

SteveL

If you're still on the quest, yes, Hank Marvin echo analysis is a huge rabbit-hole, which many of us have gone happily down in search of Wonder(ful) Land!

All the advice above is great, and while I am convinced you can make an audience happy playing Apache or whatever thru a simple delay, or even reverb (god forbid!) if you had to, there is just something missing in the feeling, at least for the player. I suspect the Catalinbread, and even more the Volante, can come close to the holy grail, but I've not used those - yet.

After trying to sound like Hank by stacking delays on an M13, I decided to buy a StanleyFX Blue Nebula, which I think is the gold standard here. It not only emulates 7 different unobtainable echo devices with their preamps, it throws in a few other goodies like reverb, tremolo, and chorus. It all sounds excellent, although I don't think this crowd would be satisfied with the reverbs! But the echoes are fantastic AND it comes with over 40 presets for specific Shadows tunes, and they are as close to spot-on as you will get without a time machine. I love the Hank Marvin sounds, and this thing nails it. It's pricey, but there's a less expensive version called the Baby Blue Echo (which still ain't cheap). I've used and recommend both. These are made to order by one guy in Britain, he has a loyal following. The technology and preset group was developed by a number of people, and it's solid, a nerd-fest labor of love for which I'm thankful. Find it here: http://www.stanleyfx.co.uk/pedals.html

DISCLAIMER: I'm not associated with this company at all, I just play guitar.

Finally, I've tried to stack multiple delays to get the complex multi-head repeats those old machines did. It's really a challenge. You can come close with the M13, but skipping heads and isolating the feedback head and getting it all to mix right makes my brain implode. If you want to try, here are settings for the songs you mentioned as defined in the latest Blue Nebula documentation, which is all available on the website if you're willing to wade through it:

Meazzi Echomatic 1 Model J
Apache- 121,238,424,and 595ms, feedback taken from the 424ms repeat
Man of Mystery - 121, 331, 424, 595ms,feedback taken from the 424ms repeat
Meazzi Echomatic 1 Model F
FBI - 121, 280, 428, 603ms; Feedback from the 428ms repeat
Meazzi Echomatic II
Peace Pipe - 4 roughly equal repeats (106, 204, 285 and 360ms) with the last one being significantly louder, and used for feedback.
Wonderful Land - Almost identical to Peace Pipe, but the delays are higher in the mix.

See the Blue Nebula documentation for more settings, but note it will require some deciphering. You'd have to spend a lot of time with the Echorec or the Volante (I love Strymon stuff too!) to figure out how to nail each tune.

Wrapping up, I'll say again that audiences probably can't hear the difference between reverb and delay, and love you just the same. But for me, the old (and now new again) multi-head echo machines are the greatest, and being able to access those sounds, and learn how Hank and others used them, has caused my reverb addiction to go into remission - the echoes are just cleaner, more controllable, and in most cases, better sounding to me. You can get them to drip if you want.

Boulder_Bob wrote:

Many moons ago I got a hold of a Yamaha MagicStomp and there was a guy who had a download that emulated Hank's delays. If you do a google search for "yamaha magicstomp shadows patches" you will get some insight. It's pretty cool. The problem with the MagicStomp is that is messes with your basic tone.

Yes, the MagicStomp was the route for me too. You can tweak those patches further. I used it here for example. The guitar on Yaqui Joe is a Squire partscaster with steel tremolo block. The amp is a cheap clone of a Marshall 20 Watt, which at least by the types of tubes is similar to a Vox. Compression- and eq-wise I tried to get close to what they did at Abbey Road back in the day.

The Exotic Guitar of Kahuna Kawentzmann

You can get the boy out of the Keynes era, but you can’t get the Keynes era out of the boy.

Last edited: Jul 14, 2020 05:39:42

Boulder_Bob wrote:

I love Hank's tone from the early to mid to mid 60s. I'm not a complete wacko in trying to get his tone, but it is certainly a worthy journey. Many moons ago I got a hold of a Yamaha MagicStomp and there was a guy who had a download that emulated Hank's delays. If you do a google search for "yamaha magicstomp shadows patches" you will get some insight. It's pretty cool. The problem with the MagicStomp is that is messes with your basic tone.

I'm the "guy who had a download that emulated Hank's delays"
I bought them from "Echos from the Past", and gave them to Bob.I've never felt 100% comfortable with that fact. He was a player I looked up to, and he asked me for them. So I let him have them. Really, Bob's patches are bootlegs.

I never thought they messed with my sound too much, at least not enough that I couldn't fix it with a twist of the amp knobs.

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

The Hall and Collins Signature Echo is worth a look and listen. It has presets for most of The Shadows popular tunes.
http://hallandcollins.com/

The Atlantics 60s recording made use of the Klemt Echolette (2 actually) and I have one of them right in front of me just now.

I've got a Zoom 508 delay in my loft with the Brian Holden Shadows settings programmed into it. Not played it for about 10 years and I have a Catalinbread Belle Epoch Deluxe that satisfies my current needs, but the 508 sounded pretty good.

Last edited: Sep 23, 2020 10:47:31