Photo of the Day
BTD
BTD
Shoutbox

sysmalakian: Birthday month starts now!
362 days ago

diceophonic: Vampiro Classics 2024 reissue
344 days ago

SabedLeepski: Sunburn Surf Fest for some scorching hot surf music: https://sunb...
301 days ago

skeeter: I know a Polish sound guy.
228 days ago

skeeter: I know a Czech one too!
228 days ago

PatGall: Surfybear metal settings
148 days ago

Pyronauts: Happy Tanks-Kicking!
127 days ago

midwestsurfguy: Merry Christmas!
95 days ago

sysmalakian: HAPPY NEW YEAR!
89 days ago

SabedLeepski: Surfin‘ Europe, for surf (related) gigs and events in Europe Big Razz https://sunb...
50 days ago

Please login or register to shout.

Current Polls

No polls at this time. Check out our past polls.

Current Contests

No contests at this time. Check out our past contests.

Donations

Help us meet our monthly goal:

100%

100%

Donate Now

Cake March Birthdays Cake
SG101 Banner

SurfGuitar101 Forums » Surf Musician »

Permalink Switching to Jaguar scale. Which model mimics the classic Jazzmaster tone?

New Topic
Goto Page: 1 2 Next

After playing 25.5" scale guitars for 35 years, it's getting harder to stretch and maintain positions. I am wanting to switch to a Jaguar but I LOVE the classic Jazzmaster tone. Which model Jaguar comes closest to the JM tone? Especially the "both pickups on" tone?

I have read endless reviews and just when I think I have it nailed down, along comes a flood of reviews (on a different model) that make me question everything.

I had my eyes set on Fender's American Professional. The Johnny Marr version gets high praise, too. American Vintage Reissues get lots of love.

For you Jag owners out there, what made you buy yours and are you wishing you had waited for something different? I am wanting 60's classic tones (JM variety) and not "modern player" high gain muddiness.

_

Hi, I'm Gellert, guitarist for The Fintastics.

https://www.facebook.com/TheFintastics

Could you poasibly move the bridge forward a little and throw a jag neck on a JM body?

Daniel Deathtide

Possibly but that's not something I would even consider.

_

Hi, I'm Gellert, guitarist for The Fintastics.

https://www.facebook.com/TheFintastics

Curtis Novak makes a Jazzmaster pickup that fits the Jaguar:

http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/JMx-Jag.shtml

A new pick guard would also be required.

Mosrite pickups are more similar to Jazzmaster pickups than a Jaguar. I'm not saying that they sound the same, but they're closer than the Jaguar pickups are. Also, the thin narrow necks and shorter scale are very comfortable to me. I have a Mosrite and a Jaguar.

One final thought is that the shorter scale is not the only thing that makes a neck more comfortable as we get older. The thinness of the neck is another factor. I had a Squier Jazzmaster that had a very thin neck. It was just as comfortable to play as my Jaguar. Perhaps sanding a Jazzmaster neck to make it thinner would be another option.

All the best!

24" scale isn't really "that" much shorter. It's the same scale as 25.5", capoed at the first fret.

The distance from the nut to the first fret on a Jazzmaster is 1.43"
The same distance on a Jaguar is 1.34"

So it's less than a 10th of an inch.

Are you having problems mostly towards the nut, or further up the neck?

I've always found that the scale length makes very little difference in ease of playing, it has more to do with setup and string gauge, neck profile, and radius, in that order.

A Jaguar is about 1" shorter in overal length, which can make reaching for the first position slightly easier. but after that, its the same. Jag's feel slightly smaller for about 2 minutes when I switch back and forth.

red outline is Jaguar, blue is Jazzmaster

image

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

Last edited: Aug 16, 2018 16:16:32

I didn't really answer your question above. I assembled a Jaguar a few years ago with Jazzmaster pickups from Sunday Handwound. It sounded like a slightly warmer sounding Jaguar, or a plinky-er Jazzmaster, but it was still most definitely a Jaguar. I later put those exact pickups in a JM, and it sounded like a traditional Jazzmaster.

Most of the difference between JM and Jaguar sound comes from the short scale of the Jaguar, I think.

Eddie K has Jaguar pickups in one of his Jazzmasters, just for the extra shielding the Jag pickups have. I'd bet we would be hard pressed to tell it was anything different than a stock JM.

image

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

Last edited: Aug 16, 2018 16:30:05

TheFintastics wrote:

Possibly but that's not something I would even consider.

Why?

Daniel Deathtide

It can't be done without major work. Jag's have 22 frets, and the body's neck pocket is set further into the body to compensate for that. You'd have to move the bridge over 1" forward, running into the pickup on the JM.

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

That does seem like a lot of work! Shame.

Daniel Deathtide

Sonichris wrote:

24" scale isn't really "that" much shorter. It's the same scale as 25.5", capoed at the first fret.

That 1.5 inches actually is a big deal for some of us. I’ve played 24-24.5 inch for a while and found 25.5 simply uncomfortable near the nut given the weird way I play. This is only one of many reasons I love the Jaguar.

Those JM pickups for Jag look very interesting!

Jonathan the Reverbivore

The Reverbivores

Please check out our latest album The Reverbivores Watch TV!

www.thereverbivores.com
Facebook
YouTube

Last edited: Aug 16, 2018 20:22:25

I don't understand how anyone could say that it's not that much shorter. It's pretty considerable and immediately noticeable. Just as the difference between the scale of most Gibson's (24.78) feels much different than most Fenders(25.5) and that's even less of a difference. Obviously, it's not simply the same as capoing on the first fret as the distance between the frets are different all of the way up.

To the OP's question, it would seem the pickup changes suggested would be the most direct path to what you're trying to do. You might also want to check out the Squier Vintage Modified model. I have the same issue and find that thinner neck much more comfortable.

OaklandA wrote:

I don't understand how anyone could say that it's not that much shorter. It's pretty considerable and immediately noticeable. Just as the difference between the scale of most Gibson's (24.78) feels much different than most Fenders(25.5) and that's even less of a difference. Obviously, it's not simply the same as capoing on the first fret as the distance between the frets are different all of the way up.

No. You are wrong. You don't know how scale works. Look at the charts below.

image
image

It clearly shows the distance between each fret. and if you look at the distance between the nut and first fret of a Jag, and the first and second of a JM, they are virtually the same. and each corresponding distance is the same. exactly like capoing the JM neck at the first fret.

And, like I said, it's less than a tenth of an inch. (.1") And, the percentage of change gets smaller as you go down the neck. By the 20th fret, there is only .02" difference. That's less than a sheet of paper. If you can feel that, you can also read braille.

Also, did you look at the drawing of the two guitars imposed over each other? there is very little difference in the actual neck placement. The Jaguar nut is about 1" closer to the body than the Jazzmaster. So it's less reach to the nut, but the difference in fret placement is very very very minor.

The percentage of change can also go the other way. 30", and even 34" scale necks correspond at some point with each other. All the fender scales correspond at some point. It's one of Leo's genius moments.

If you can't figure this out, I don't know how else to explain it to you.

When you play, I hope you move your hand further down the neck than just the first fret position - so you get used to playing in all the smaller increments. I can't imagine why anyone would think a 24" scale is that much different than 25.5".

A 24.75" Gibson scale does not correspond at any point, which is why it might feel very unfamiliar at first.

The next time you are at Guitar Center, grab a Jaguar, and a Jazzmaster, and smash the two necks together, with the jag's nut at the JM's first fret. The frets all line up. Then, while security hustles you out of the store, think to yourself "by god, Sonichris was right!!"

All the great players I know can play any guitar, anytime. They don't worry about all the little bullshit like scale length, and fret size, and radius. They just shred. They might have preferences, but they still kill it on any guitar. Be like them. Practice more, worry less.

I know you all don't know who I am anymore, but I assure you I'm correct. I spend far too much time on stupid shit like this in my current day job, which is building guitars. I try to shed a little light on something, and some pretend to be experts based on a sample size of 1, and an internet degree.

Math doesn't lie.

Sorry to crap all over your thread Gellert

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

Last edited: Aug 17, 2018 07:19:33

Hi! If math does not lie, 1/10 of an inch is 2,54 mm, not 0.5 mm ...
Yours Wolfi

http://www.surfgrammeln-san.org
https://www.facebook.com/BaluUndSurfgrammeln
http://greencookierecords.bandcamp.com/album/coming-out-soon-los-chicharrones-del-surf-10

ElBirkerio wrote:

Hi! If math does not lie, 1/10 of an inch is 2,54 mm, not 0.5 mm ...
Yours Wolfi

Yes - don’t know how I missed that. I was trying to be cute I guess. Doesn’t work when you can’t convert inches to mm properly.

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

After sleeping on this, I think I may not have made my original point clearly.

The original post was about how he was having problems holding certain positions on the fretboard. It’s my thought that it isn’t the scale length that is the problem. I’m aware that JM and Jag’s play differently, but it’s not all due to the scale length. The actual fret positions should feel very similar, because as I showed, they are. The Jag is just one position up on the neck. So if you can play an “A” chord at the 5th fret on a Jag, you should be able to play an “A#” on a JM just as easily. The only place on a JM that is different than somewhere on a Jag is the first fret position. And, unless all you do is play cowboy chords at the nut, after the initial shock of the smaller guitar wears off, it should feel very similar to a JM everywhere but that first position.

For me, the big difference between the two is the 1” closer nut on the Jag, and I can see where that would be helpful if you just can’t comfortably reach the nut on a JM. I’ve personally never experienced that.

So, if I can’t play well on a JM, I can’t play well on a Jag, no matter what the difference in feel is. Because, as we’ve seen, the difference in what your left hand is doing isn’t really very much between the two.
Which is the point I was trying to make the whole time.

BTW, I’m not knocking Jags. I love em, along with Jazzmasters. I’ve owned a bunch of both.

"You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"

I notice a difference between the two, but it doesn’t affect my play much. Sure, pinky stretching scale practice in the first position of a Jag is slightly easier, but only slightly. And like Chris said, many other factors go in to play.

The JM I won at the convention last year has a 9.5 radius and wider/taller fret wire. So many people commented about how awkward it would be compared to “vintage correct”. To be honest, I hardly notice. The thicker neck is what I notice, and the too-glossy finish on the back (that squeaks when I slide and builds up hand funk too fast) is what affects my play the most. Again, it’s other factors that are bigger culprits.

Like Chris said, sure there are preferences, but I think many of the details guitar players get hung up on are silly. They see a number and think “no way, not for me” without ever spending 5 minutes with it, let alone the months needed to REALLY get to know it.

As for the OPs question: Good luck with your search for scale & tone perfection! Be sure to post your results Smile

Gellert,
Is it the scale specifically that is causing the issue or the size of a Jazzmaster overall?
When you compare a JM to a Strat, the Jazzmaster is a longer guitar because of the bigger body. So the stretch you have to make is "wider" than a Strat, even though they are both 25.5" scale.
So is it a finger stretching or back stretching problem?

Paul

Wow. Such an interesting collection of viewpoints, first-hand knowledge, and well-wishers! So let me try to be as detailed and explicit as I possibly can so there is zero misunderstanding to my original post.

I have played 25 1/2" scale guitars since 17 years old. My left hand is not as bendy, stretchable, whatever you'd like to call it. It's frets 1 through 7 mostly that is becoming harder to chord, solo, stretch, etc etc. I have played rock guitars like Jackson's, ESPs etc which all have 25 1/2" necks. I started playing surf music on Strats and stuck with it mainly because the neck scale is the same.

At 52...my left hand grows weary of the distances between frets. Yes....the analogy of lining up a JM and a Jaguar neck to neck indicates that it's "only 1 fret in difference" but to me...and to my left hand...that 1 fret is a whole world of relief! As pointed out above...I can IMMEDIATELY tell a Gibson neck from a JM neck. Even though it's just 3/4" difference from fret #1 to fret #22.

So, my original post asks...which MODEL Jaguar will get me in the ballpark "tone-wise", as a classic JM. I am ready to quit the 25 1/2" scale and graduate to 24". My hand will thank me and my cussing will hopefully end due to less stretching. For anyone that's been in my situation (and needing to switch to smaller neck lengths) they know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. The math charts show tiny differences. My fingers feel big differences.

The bodies of the guitars are no issue. I have played some ridiculously large flying V's haha.

So again, Jaguar owners, which model do you most recommend?

_

Hi, I'm Gellert, guitarist for The Fintastics.

https://www.facebook.com/TheFintastics

My own semi-educated viewpoint- if you want a Jag that sounds as close to a Jazzy as possible, you'll need to put JM pups in the Jag. I don't think you'll find something off-the-rack.

The Reverbivores - we're local favorites!

Gellert,

For me, the best sounding Jag pickups are AV65s. They aren't dark, but heavier than other Jag pups. You can probably adjust amp knobs to get the tone on the darker side.

This doesn't answer your question, but I think any Jag model that feels physically comfortable will suffice, and you can mod it from there to reach the tone you are after.

I've heard the Johnny Marr Jag can get dark with the in series switching, but you miss out on the rhythm circuit and instead get bass and mids choke switches which then becomes the opposite of a dark deep JM tone. I've tried a Marr Jag in guitar center, but only on a reissue amp with no reverb tank, so I couldn't really get a feel of how it would actually sound on my set up at home. Might be worth you testing?

I actually really like the Marr neck too. Nice & solid. I like the colors of the Marr Jags too (especially the new Lake Placid Blue model), but its the electronics that lose me.

Again, good luck!!

Goto Page: 1 2 Next
Top