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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Gear »

Permalink GFS tremolo blocks Steel or Brass for more sustain?

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I'm looking at upgrading the stock tremolo block on my 2009 Squier Affinity Stratocaster (thin body) and am in a quandary, do I go with steel or brass? At the same time I uprgade the tremolo block I also plan on upgrading the saddles with a set of all steel GFS (GuitarFetish) "Import" ones, the same ones I installed on my Affinity Tele.

Where the tremolo block is concerned does it really make that much of a difference in tone ie. steel vs brass?

Will the brass and/or steel make that much of an improvement in both tone and sustain? Will it be noticeable? My main objective is to increase "sustain" or am I expecting too much with the Affinity Strat having the thinner body as opposed to a regular thickness Strat?

I ask because my experience with metals tells me either of the aforementioned materials ie. steel and/or brass has got to be better and provide more sustain than the stock zinc block or am I just wasting my money?

note:

I don't play "out" or with anyone else, I play only at home for fun.

I practice almost exclusively with a Strat and I'm playing mostly "Surf" and "Rock", ie. Pipeline, Penetration, The Savage, some Chuck Berry, Duane Eddy, Roy Orbison, Link Wray, Tom Petty, Cranberries, Billy Idol, Del Shannon, Johnny Kidd & The Pirates. For 'heavier"/"harder" stuff, songs that require a humbucker I still have a Fender Lead III though I have been toying with installing a 12-pole single coil-sized humbucker or hot rails in the Strat's bridge position.

Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 05:06:10

I don't know the answer but I'm noticing the use of brass on Chapman guitars and others lately. On the hardness scale brass is 3 and steel 4-4.5 so for myself I'd probably chose steel because the trem-arm screw threads might be a shade tougher.

The zinc block offers a better cathodic protection. Steel strings last twice as long in a salt air environment near the ocean. With a brass block the steel of the the strings will rust within a week.

(Naahhhh, that's only if you take your guitar on fishing trips...)
Some like the steel blocks, some like brass and others can't tell the difference. I think I'm one of the last group...

Just make sure the new block has more mass, that will make the big difference. The Squiers have very thin blocks.

Keep in mind that most guitars have no block and they do just fine.

Thank you all for the quick reply to my inquiry.

I am concerned about diminished and/or non-existent returns if I swap out the stock zinc block for a steel or brass one, if it doesn't guarantee a noticeable increase in sustain it's not worth the cost (financially) or the labor (mine) to do it.

The main reason I was contemplating switching tremolo blocks is because of what I would describe as notes "dropping off", not "sustaining"/ringing out as long as I would hope or ringing out as long as they seem to do in professional recordings of the songs I'm trying to imitate (that may be a trick of the engineers doing the recordings in the booth).

I know some might suggest a full-sized (thickness) Strat body (I have a standard thickness Korean-era Squier II Strat w/stock block) which will allow a thicker block for greater sustain but this winter has taken it's toll on my beat up body specifically my already blown out lower back and the Affinity's lower weight has given me some relief as even sitting down with and using a strap if there's any weight on my shoulder I feel it my lumbar region in a short period of time. With the aches and pains my SX Liquid w/2-P90s which sustains notes pretty well and is my heaviest guitar weight-wise has seen very little use in the past eight months. Hopefully worker's comp will be quicker in approving the lumbar rhizotomy/lesioning/ablation (severing of nerves) which doesn't eliminate all the pain but in the past has given me months if not up to a year or more of relief.

Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 20:30:27

For sustain the important characteristic of the vibrato block is density (weight per volume) not hardness. Zinc is 7.1 gm/cc, steel 7.9 gm/cc, brass, 8.7 gm/cc, and lead 11.3 gm/cc.

I heard obvious huge improvements in sustain, tone and note stability when I glued 4 to 5 oz of lead weights onto the zinc vibrato block with several imported guitars that had strat type vibratos. It took little time to do this. I bought lead rod on a spool from a fisherman's store. For glue I used Harbor Freight Tools' own brand of epoxy. Harbor Freight's epoxy is perfect because it is strong enough to hold the weights in place, but not too strong to remove these weights (and redo the work). I had flattened the lead rod into a rectangular prism shape by tapping the top with a hammer while it was on the concrete floor of my garage.

For one guitar I bought and installed the brass block from GFS. Curiosity got me, and I used it to replace a zinc block I had already glued lead weights on. The GFS brass block was heavier and bulkier than the lead-and-zinc block. It took a lot more time to install than gluing on lead weights, along with a frustrating amount of unexpected effort. I had to enlarge the vibrato cavity for the brass block to fit in the guitar. Maybe the brass block gives slightly more sustain than the glued-on lead weights, and maybe it doesn't, but the difference is small and IMO not worth pursuing. You can see and hear the guitar with the GFS brass block with plenty of vibrato action in this Youtube video (I also modified it in other ways, as you will notice): https://youtu.be/l1knSE4fwAw

In one guitar (a Switch Vibracell "Stein" model) gluing on lead weights transformed the guitar from unusable to outstanding. Before the addition every note sounded sour and out of tune, even a single note played alone. It had the sustain of a mandolin. After adding the weights it became a magnificent instrument (well, I also replaced the bridge and middle pickups). In every guitar I glued lead weights into the improvement was obvious, and I was happy with it.

In my experience sustain follows the composition of the vibrato block, while the overall weight of the guitar has comparatively negligible effect. My lightest professional guitar is a Goya Rangemaster archtop full hollow body. It weighed 5.5 pounds before I glued about 4 oz of lead weights onto the underside of the vibrato plate. The sustain went from weak to gorgeous, and it is now a pleasure to play (instead of being depressing). You can see and hear this Goya Rangemaster in this Youtube video: https://youtu.be/KVKFVNdjz_E

Insanitizers! http://www.insanitizers.com

Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 19:37:51

Would it be better to go with this GFS bridge/tremolo block (choice of steel or brass) unit (https://www.guitarfetish.com/Squier-and-Import-Strat-Shorty-trem-Solid-STEEL-block-_p_24707.html) rather than replacing just the block and saddles? Has anyone bought one and if you did what did/do you think of it?

note:
This was posted before I saw Squids reply above but if anyone has an answer to my questions on GFS bridge/trem unit please chime in.

Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 20:05:33

Squid wrote:

For sustain the important characteristic of the vibrato block is density (weight per volume) not hardness. Zinc is 7.1 gm/cc, steel 7.9 gm/cc, brass, 8.7 gm/cc, and lead 11.3 gm/cc.

I heard obvious huge improvements in sustain, tone and note stability when I glued 4 to 5 oz of lead weights onto the zinc vibrato block with several imported guitars that had strat type vibratos. It took little time to do this. I bought lead rod on a spool from a fisherman's store. For glue I used Harbor Freight Tools' own brand of epoxy. Harbor Freight's epoxy is perfect because it is strong enough to hold the weights in place, but not too strong to remove these weights (and redo the work). I had flattened the lead rod into a rectangular prism shape by tapping the top with a hammer while it was on the concrete floor of my garage.

For one guitar I bought and installed the brass block from GFS. Curiosity got me, and I used it to replace a zinc block I had already glued lead weights on. The GFS brass block was heavier and bulkier than the lead-and-zinc block. It took a lot more time to install than gluing on lead weights, along with a frustrating amount of unexpected effort. I had to enlarge the vibrato cavity for the brass block to fit in the guitar. Maybe the brass block gives slightly more sustain than the glued-on lead weights, and maybe it doesn't, but the difference is small and IMO not worth pursuing. You can see and hear the guitar with the GFS brass block with plenty of vibrato action in this Youtube video (I also modified it in other ways, as you will notice): https://youtu.be/l1knSE4fwAw

In one guitar (a Switch Vibracell "Stein" model) gluing on lead weights transformed the guitar from unusable to outstanding. Before the addition every note sounded sour and out of tune, even a single note played alone. It had the sustain of a mandolin. After adding the weights it became a magnificent instrument (well, I also replaced the bridge and middle pickups). In every guitar I glued lead weights into the improvement was obvious, and I was happy with it.

In my experience sustain follows the composition of the vibrato block, while the overall weight of the guitar has comparatively negligible effect. My lightest professional guitar is a Goya Rangemaster archtop full hollow body. It weighed 5.5 pounds before I glued about 4 oz of lead weights onto the underside of the vibrato plate. The sustain went from weak to gorgeous, and it is now a pleasure to play (instead of being depressing). You can see and hear this Goya Rangemaster in this Youtube video: https://youtu.be/KVKFVNdjz_E

Thank you for that detailed and informative post, it is enlightening. I will watch the YouTube video and Harbor Freight I'm familiar with, the key will be getting the lead it's common near the N.J. shore because of salt water anglers but not up here in the NW part of the state, I'll look for other sources.

Btw:

Was that a Fender/Squier Strat body that required you to enlarge the trem cavity to accept the GFS block?

Before I make any decisions or purchases I will carefully measure the tremolo block cavity in the Affinity Strat and compare the dimensions to those posted for the upgrade block on the GFS page if I choose to go that route ie. changing tremolo blocks.

Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 20:32:57

blackheartsfan wrote:

Was that a Fender/Squier Strat body that required you to enlarge the trem cavity to accept the GFS block?

No. The red strat-type guitar was from Monoprice.com (for about $89). It required the same modifications as all import strat-type guitars I've bought: thin the neck, weight or change the vibrato block, change saddles, change pickups, use string rollers instead of trees, and sometimes change the vibrato screw plate. Thick screw plates are available from many sources (including GFS) but some strat-type guitars came with good thick ones.

Insanitizers! http://www.insanitizers.com

Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 21:09:12

The term for the lead material I used is called "lead sinker wire." I see that walmart.com sells a pack for about $7.50. That should be enough for several guitars. Here is a link:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bullet-Weights-Lead-Wire/52497630?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227055093215&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=156201816450&wl4=pla-267787074183&wl5=9033569&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=52497630&wl13=&veh=sem

Insanitizers! http://www.insanitizers.com

Last edited: Apr 16, 2018 21:42:43

Bronze blocks are also available. It's what they tend to make bells with.

Blackhearts fan, I put the GFS brass trem block in the exact same guitar you are contimplating to modify, a Korean Squier II. It made a major improvement. Although the spacing for the plate screws was right, at the time I didn't realize that I needed a shallower block as well. My solution was to clamp it down and shave off a little with a sawzall. It took about ten seconds. GFS says they're machined but they are definitely cast.
The other thing I recommend for that guitar, also a GFS product, are these saddles:
https://www.guitarfetish.com/Upgrade-Stainless-Steel-Saddles-Fits-import-or-USA-Trems-Set-of-Six_p_773.html

It will still be a funky guitar with a good neck but it will be better than it is now.

The Vicissitones
Diesel Marine
The Rasputones

Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 09:40:30

ElectricLimnology wrote:

Blackhearts fan, I put the GFS brass trem block in the exact same guitar you are contimplating to modify, a Korean Squier II. It made a major improvement. Although the spacing for the plate screws was right, at the time I didn't realize that I needed a shallower block as well. My solution was to clamp it down and shave off a little with a sawzall. It took about ten seconds. GFS says they're machined but they are definitely cast.
The other thing I recommend for that guitar, also a GFS product, are these saddles:
https://www.guitarfetish.com/Upgrade-Stainless-Steel-Saddles-Fits-import-or-USA-Trems-Set-of-Six_p_773.html

It will still be a funky guitar with a good neck but it will be better than it is now.

Thanks for the feedback. The GFS all steel "Import" saddles I have experience with, I installed a set on my 2016 Affinity Tele.

note:
For anyone considering upgrading their Affinity zinc saddles to all steel GFS "Import" saddles on either their Tele or Strat you may have reuse your original saddle height screws, I had to on my 2016 Affinity Tele, so don't lose or discard them.

As for the bridge and tremolo block it's not the Squier II that I'm considering installing it in, it's intended for the Affinity Strat. My Squier II Stratocaster is one of the "full sized", standard thickness bodies as opposed to the thinner one (there were two different thickness bodies during the Squier II-era in addition to some bodies being "laminated hardwood" and others "solid"). GFS also offers a "short" tremolo block these days for the "thinner" Affinity and Squier II bodies that require a shorter block.

Last edited: Apr 18, 2018 02:13:42

I just ordered a set of what appears to be true roller saddles, on which the roller appears to be brass. The cost is $12.75 +$1 salestax. I aim to replace saddles that were sold as roller saddles (and resemble roller saddles) but do not roll (what looks like rollers are black in color on these).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Surfing-6-Roller-Bridge-Tremolo-Saddles-w-Wrench-for-Fender-Strat-Tele-Elect/263568265535?hash=item3d5de4913f:g:OnYAAOSwsTVatvSt

My main reason for buying these is that strings break very quickly on my strats. So, unless I change strings just before a gig, I can count on breaking a string during the gig. Even old strings don't break on my Steinberger guitars or with Bigsby vibratos, but they quickly break on strats at the saddle.

Insanitizers! http://www.insanitizers.com

Last edited: Apr 17, 2018 16:04:46

Several years ago I bought and installed a set of GFS steel saddles. Strings continued breaking frequently with them even after I filed and sanded the surface of these saddles. Moreover, I had to retune frequently. I was annoyed with these GFS saddles. The saddles I replaced them with (the non-rolling ones sold as rollers) are much better, both for tuning and string breakage, but strings still break more than they should. This is why I just ordered new saddles with true rollers.

Incidentally Graphtec "graphite" saddles muffled tone and sustain; although they prevented string breakage the tone and sustain were not acceptable.

Insanitizers! http://www.insanitizers.com

Squid wrote:

I just ordered a set of what appears to be true roller saddles, on which the roller appears to be brass. The cost is $12.75 +$1 salestax. I aim to replace saddles that were sold as roller saddles (and resemble roller saddles) but do not roll (what looks like rollers are black in color on these).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Surfing-6-Roller-Bridge-Tremolo-Saddles-w-Wrench-for-Fender-Strat-Tele-Elect/263568265535?hash=item3d5de4913f:g:OnYAAOSwsTVatvSt

My main reason for buying these is that strings break very quickly on my strats. So, unless I change strings just before a gig, I can count on breaking a string during the gig. Even old strings don't break on my Steinberger guitars or with Bigsby vibratos, but they quickly break on strats at the saddle.

Thanks for the lead on the roller saddles, a plus is they're 10.5mm wide which is "Import"-sized for the Squier Affinity Stratocaster so a set is now on my now short list of items to purchase (I placed them in my "Cart") but I will wait to pull the trigger and order them until you post a review.

As for my bridge/trem assembly I may have lucked out, some have reported that recent Affinity Teles and Strats come with not only zinc saddles but also zinc bridge plates, tonight I found a magnet has a strong attraction to both the factory saddles and the factory bridge plate on my 2009 Squier Affinity Stratocaster indicating both must be made of "steel" which in my case negates the need to order a complete bridge/tremolo block assembly. On a side note the factory saddles I replaced on my 2016 Squier Affinity Telecaster are definitely "zinc", they have no attraction to magnets.

Where string breakage is concerned I have yet to break one since returning to playing in October of 2008. I don't do wide bends or engage in heavy tremolo bar use or do dive-bombs, it's just a "shimmer" for me. I've stuck to one string brand and size, D'Addario EXL-120s (.009-.042), on all my guitars. Have you considered that maybe you got a bad batch or a carton (if you are buying in bulk) of knockoffs from Chi-Nah?

Last edited: Apr 20, 2018 01:51:44

blackheartsfan wrote:

Where string breakage is concerned I have yet to break one since returning to playing in October of 2008. ...I've stuck to one string brand and size, D'Addarrio EXL-120s (.009-.042), on all my guitars. Have you considered that maybe you got a bad batch or a carton (if you are buying in bulk) of knockoffs from Chi-Nah?

The set of roller saddles arrived today. Sadly their design and manufacture are defective in a way that shows negligence in design. The channel in the center is too narrow to accept the bolt. After about 1/8" into the channel the bolt will not turn because the channel is too narrow for the screwthreads. I can use extraordinary force and manhandle the bolt into the channel. This forces the screwthreads into the wall of the channel and causes them to make grooves. Groovy (not). The springs are too short, but I can use the longer springs from the saddles I have removed.

So tomorrow I will probably force these roller saddles to work properly despite their manufacturing defects.

I break all brands of steel and nickel strings, including costly USA-made Elixir coated strings. (Man, replacing an individual Elixir string leads me to feel stupid about buying Elixir strings at all. This is because I have to break a set to replace an individual string. So I have fallen out of the habit of using Elixirs).

I use 10-46 or 9-46 gauge sets, except that I replace the 46 string with a 50 string that I buy in bulk. The 50 string never breaks, the others do. What I do that breaks strings is pick hard. That's my style and habit, it's how I get punch and expression in my playing. Strings break while I pick, not while I bend or use vibrato. I don't knowingly use strings from China.

Insanitizers! http://www.insanitizers.com

Last edited: Apr 19, 2018 23:46:19

Squid wrote:

blackheartsfan wrote:

Where string breakage is concerned I have yet to break one since returning to playing in October of 2008. ...I've stuck to one string brand and size, D'Addarrio EXL-120s (.009-.042), on all my guitars. Have you considered that maybe you got a bad batch or a carton (if you are buying in bulk) of knockoffs from Chi-Nah?

The set of roller saddles arrived today. Sadly their design and manufacture are defective in a way that shows negligence in design. The channel in the center is too narrow to accept the bolt. After about 1/8" into the channel the bolt will not turn because the channel is too narrow for the screwthreads. I can use extraordinary force and manhandle the bolt into the channel. This forces the screwthreads into the wall of the channel and causes them to make grooves. Groovy (not). The springs are too short, but I can use the longer springs from the saddles I have removed.

So tomorrow I will probably force these roller saddles to work properly despite their manufacturing defects.

I break all brands of steel and nickel strings, including costly USA-made Elixir coated strings. (Man, replacing an individual Elixir string leads me to feel stupid about buying Elixir strings at all. This is because I have to break a set to replace an individual string. So I have fallen out of the habit of using Elixirs).

I use 10-46 or 9-46 gauge sets, except that I replace the 46 string with a 50 string that I buy in bulk. The 50 string never breaks, the others do. What I do that breaks strings is pick hard. That's my style and habit, it's how I get punch and expression in my playing. Strings break while I pick, not while I bend or use vibrato. I don't knowingly use strings from China.

Thanks for the review of the saddles, what a shame good idea but poor execution on their, the manufacturer's, end.

As for strings I tried a few different brands but quickly fell in love with the D'Addario pack mentioned above, I like the feel plus they're "Made in the USA".

I decided to keep the new roller saddes. With just a screwdriver (while wearing a work glove) I successfully forced the bolts into the center channel. This did not damage anything. Then I installed the saddles on the guitar. The guitar shows superb tone and sustain with the change, at least as good as before. I was able to adjust intonation properly, and I saw that forcing the bolts into the entire distance of the center channel was not necessary. Forcing for a distance of 1/4 inch is enough.

However, now there is a new problem. The saddle height bolts are too long and have a pitch different from the previous saddle height bolts. In my pile of accumulated saddles from previous guitar mods I found saddle height bolts that interchange and are 1/4" long. Now I can complete proper installation.

Insanitizers! http://www.insanitizers.com

Last edited: Apr 22, 2018 12:51:35

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