Surfysonic
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Posts: 521
Walkersville, MD
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Posted on Feb 24 2018 03:29 PM
I found a '64 Fender Showman blonde head that arrives next week. I'm very stoked to finally get a Showman!
I'm now on the hunt to find a Showman cabinet with a 15" speaker (8 ohms) to pair with the head. A tone ring cabinet would be cool. I'm sure this may prove to be a daunting search.
Any recommendations for a modern builder in case I'm out of luck on the vintage option? Update Looks like Beaver Bottoms or RA Custom may be the way to go.
I've been reading up on attenuators in past SG101 topics. I placed an order for a Weber Mass 200w Attenuator today in order to not blow out the windows in my home or disturb neighbors.
Update
The Fender Showman head arrived earlier this evening. Inside on the tube chart the stamp is "ND", making it April of '64 and "FENDER ELECTRIC INSTRUMENT CO. Fullerton, California". The front faceplate and back plate say "Fender Musical Instruments".
All of the small tubes were in casings, which is cool. There are two missing 6L6 tubes (#2 and #4 from left to right), though (not in box). The amp was probably sold/traded-in to Guitar Center as is. No complaints here, as the price was too good to pass up. I'm going to try to get it into a local vintage amp tech to check it out and service it as needed. It has a modern 3-prong plug, too.
Here are some photos:
(I took screws off back panel for inside photos)
— The doofus formerly known as Snorre
Surfysonic on YouTube
World Famous Philistines: 2014 - 2015
K39: 2013 - 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv9JADQ4ukw
Last edited: Mar 02, 2018 11:25:35
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tubeswell
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 1424
Wellington, NZ
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Posted on Feb 28 2018 12:11 AM
So someone has pulled one of the output tube pairs - you'll want to run 2 x the usual speaker impedance in that condition (in order to ensure a proper ballpark load resistance)
— He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Surf Daddies
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Matt22
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2813
Fredericksburg, Virginia
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Posted on Feb 28 2018 08:09 AM
The cabinet is correct for 1964, but Fender didn't switch to "Musical Instruments" until a few months into 1965. Was the seller open with you about someone putting a later chassis into the cabinet?
Either way, it's cool and I would recommend Beaver Bottoms for sure. Bob's cabinets are spot on perfect. You'll have to determine whether this is truly a dual or a single Showman by looking at the OT.
— Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html
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Matt22
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2813
Fredericksburg, Virginia
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Posted on Feb 28 2018 08:12 AM
By the way, a 4 ohm (dual) OT will have the code 022889 and the
8 ohm (single) OT would be 022897
Sorry, more information that I had to look up:
The 4 Ohm would have 125A29A, and the
8 ohm OT would have 125A30A.
— Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html
Last edited: Feb 28, 2018 08:15:19
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Surfysonic
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Posts: 521
Walkersville, MD
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 10:51 AM
tubeswell wrote:
So someone has pulled one of the output tube pairs - you'll want to run 2 x the usual speaker impedance in that condition (in order to ensure a proper ballpark load resistance)
Forgive my lack of amp technical knowledge - does this mean I should use two 12" 4-ohm speakers as opposed to two 12" 8-ohm speakers? Or is two 12" 8-ohm speakers OK to use? If I restored the missing tubes, I should be able to use a 15" 8-ohm speaker like a standard Showman rig?
— The doofus formerly known as Snorre
Surfysonic on YouTube
World Famous Philistines: 2014 - 2015
K39: 2013 - 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv9JADQ4ukw
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Surfysonic
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Posts: 521
Walkersville, MD
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 11:29 AM
Matt22 wrote:
The cabinet is correct for 1964, but Fender didn't switch to "Musical Instruments" until a few months into 1965. Was the seller open with you about someone putting a later chassis into the cabinet?
Either way, it's cool and I would recommend Beaver Bottoms for sure. Bob's cabinets are spot on perfect. You'll have to determine whether this is truly a dual or a single Showman by looking at the OT.
Matt22 wrote:
By the way, a 4 ohm (dual) OT will have the code 022889 and the
8 ohm (single) OT would be 022897
Sorry, more information that I had to look up:
The 4 Ohm would have 125A29A, and the
8 ohm OT would have 125A30A.
Hey Matt, I totally appreciate all input from everyone with far more vintage Fender amp experience and knowledge. I bought this from Guitar Center's used section online for a price I couldn't pass up, which may explain why it was probably a modded amp with a later chassis.
My initial assumption that this may possibly be a transition model with regard to the Fender logo - I didn't think at the time that it's just as easy for someone to slap on the later logo on after the fact, too. I'm wondering, if it is a '65 or later chassis, is it possible that someone in the factory just grabbbed an older head shell with the old tube info sticker? Hence the transition thought.
I hope to have some time today to open up the amp and determine what chassis code I have. I'll post an update as soon as I can. 
— The doofus formerly known as Snorre
Surfysonic on YouTube
World Famous Philistines: 2014 - 2015
K39: 2013 - 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv9JADQ4ukw
Last edited: Mar 01, 2018 11:30:52
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Sonichris
Joined: Mar 06, 2006
Posts: 1872
Wear gloves - I'm in the Rockies
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 11:45 AM
I can't make out the chassis code on the back. it's the stamped code on the far right of the back of the metal chassis. It looks a little like "A 10057"
Compare it to this guide for the year. There are other parts inside, and even a date code for a more accurate date.
Showman AA763, AB763 (blackface)
A00100 to A01400 - 1963
A01400 to A01700 - 1964
A01700 to A04300 - 1965
A04300 to A08000 - 1966
A07800 to A12000 - 1967
— "You can't tell where you're going if you don't know where you've been"
Last edited: Mar 01, 2018 11:47:01
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Matt22
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2813
Fredericksburg, Virginia
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 12:01 PM
I also read A 10057, which would seem to make this a 1967 Single Showman, because by this time, the "Dual" script was added to the Faceplate on the Dual Showman.
— Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html
Last edited: Mar 01, 2018 12:01:28
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tubeswell
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 1424
Wellington, NZ
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 12:37 PM
Check the OT code. Whatever it prescribes will mean the OT is wound to require that amount of speaker impedance with 4 output tubes. If you halve the number of output tubes, you need to DOUBLE the speaker impedance
— He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Surf Daddies
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Surfysonic
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Posts: 521
Walkersville, MD
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 02:46 PM
Sonichris wrote:
I can't make out the chassis code on the back. it's the stamped code on the far right of the back of the metal chassis. It looks a little like "A 10057"
Compare it to this guide for the year. There are other parts inside, and even a date code for a more accurate date.
Showman AA763, AB763 (blackface)
A00100 to A01400 - 1963
A01400 to A01700 - 1964
A01700 to A04300 - 1965
A04300 to A08000 - 1966
A07800 to A12000 - 1967
Matt22 wrote:
I also read A 10057, which would seem to make this a 1967 Single Showman, because by this time, the "Dual" script was added to the Faceplate on the Dual Showman.
Good eyes, guys! I can confirm that the code is A 10057 on the back of the chassis. One more work meeting and I'll be able to open this puppy up to check for further information. Thanks!
— The doofus formerly known as Snorre
Surfysonic on YouTube
World Famous Philistines: 2014 - 2015
K39: 2013 - 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv9JADQ4ukw
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Surfysonic
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Posts: 521
Walkersville, MD
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 05:11 PM
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Matt22
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2813
Fredericksburg, Virginia
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 05:36 PM
Single Showman from 1967
— Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html
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Surfysonic
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Posts: 521
Walkersville, MD
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 07:29 PM
Matt22 wrote:
Single Showman from 1967
Thanks for confirming, Matt, much appreciated!
tubeswell wrote:
Check the OT code. Whatever it prescribes will mean the OT is wound to require that amount of speaker impedance with 4 output tubes. If you halve the number of output tubes, you need to DOUBLE the speaker impedance
I really appreciate your input but I'm afraid I'm a complete noob to amplifier tech speak. So, with the amp as it is now, what speaker configuration would you recommend?
I know nothing about imedance and how it works - would this mean I need a single 4-ohm speaker or two 4-ohm (12"?) speakers or can I use my existing 2x12 8-ohm speaker cabinet?
Or, would you recommend I replace the missing tubes and get the amp re-biased back to its 100-watt glory? If I do the latter, I can then hunt for a 15" 8-ohm speaker setup.
— The doofus formerly known as Snorre
Surfysonic on YouTube
World Famous Philistines: 2014 - 2015
K39: 2013 - 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv9JADQ4ukw
Last edited: Mar 02, 2018 22:45:43
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Matt22
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2813
Fredericksburg, Virginia
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 08:13 PM
You should have a single 8 Ohm 15 for a single getup, which I prefer, or you can get 2 8 Ohm 15s to make a 4 Ohm load for a dual. I think the tone-ring cabinet sounds better and it's also not as heavy, though both are heavy.
Occasionally you come across a real oddball with these Showman amps. I have a Chassis with the number A 01230, which would make it one of the first blackface Showman amps made in 1963. But then the ink stamp inside on the chassis is from 1964. I can't tell when the cabinet was made because the label inside is torn and the stamp that would be there is missing with the paper that was lost. So, should I call it a 1963 or a 1964? I don't know. If I remember correctly, some of the parts are 63 and some 64 and the OT has been changed because it's from 1965. But Blackface Showman amps are all the same, aside from the "Fender Electric Instruments" or Fender Musical Instruments" on the faceplate. In late '66 they also started printing "Dual Showman" on the Faceplates.
— Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html
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Surfysonic
Joined: Oct 17, 2009
Posts: 521
Walkersville, MD
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 10:26 PM
Matt22 wrote:
You should have a single 8 Ohm 15 for a single getup, which I prefer, or you can get 2 8 Ohm 15s to make a 4 Ohm load for a dual. I think the tone-ring cabinet sounds better and it's also not as heavy, though both are heavy.
Occasionally you come across a real oddball with these Showman amps. I have a Chassis with the number A 01230, which would make it one of the first blackface Showman amps made in 1963. But then the ink stamp inside on the chassis is from 1964. I can't tell when the cabinet was made because the label inside is torn and the stamp that would be there is missing with the paper that was lost. So, should I call it a 1963 or a 1964? I don't know. If I remember correctly, some of the parts are 63 and some 64 and the OT has been changed because it's from 1965. But Blackface Showman amps are all the same, aside from the "Fender Electric Instruments" or Fender Musical Instruments" on the faceplate. In late '66 they also started printing "Dual Showman" on the Faceplates.
So whether I have all 4 6L6 tubes or just the current two, I should still go with either a single 8-ohm 15" speaker in a tone ring cabinet (my preference as well)?
I think I'm too old (not ancient, but getting there) to have to deal with a 15x2 cabinet although I'm sure it sounds amazing).
— The doofus formerly known as Snorre
Surfysonic on YouTube
World Famous Philistines: 2014 - 2015
K39: 2013 - 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv9JADQ4ukw
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tubeswell
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 1424
Wellington, NZ
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 10:41 PM
Snorre wrote:
tubeswell wrote:
Check the OT code. Whatever it prescribes will mean the OT is wound to require that amount of speaker impedance with 4 output tubes. If you halve the number of output tubes, you need to DOUBLE the speaker impedance
I really appreciate your input but I'm afraid I'm a complete noob to amplifier tech speak. So, with the amp as it is now, what speaker configuration would you recommend?
I know nothing about imedance and how it works - would this mean I need a single 4-ohm speaker or two 4-ohm (12"?) speakers or can I use my existing 2x12 8-ohm speaker cabinet?
Or, would you recommend I replace the missing tubes and get the amp re-biased back to its 100-watt glory? If I do the latter, I can then hunt for a 15" 8-ohm speaker setup.
Output transformer windings have a Primary:Secondary turns ratio which determines the Pri:Sec: impedance ratio. (The Pri:Sec impedance ratio is the square of the Pri:Sec turns ratio). So if you have a certain speaker load on the secondary winding, then an impedance will be reflected to the primary winding that corresponds with the Pri:Sec impedance ratio. (You want the Primary impedance to be optimum for the power rating and voltage that the output tubes are set up to run at, because the output tubes need a load to work into (in the same way that an engine is governed to deliver optimum horsepower into an optimum load). If the load is too high, the tubes will be fighting to deliver a good output signal. If the load is too low, the tubes will tend to run out of control. (Of course this is over simplifying things a bit for a guitar amp and most amps will tolerate 'a notch' either side of the 'optimum load'. But I am talking 'strictly' about the 'optimum' load so...
In the stock configuration, the 022897 OT is wound to deliver a 2kOhm primary impedance (plate-to-plate) to the 2 x pairs of 6L6 output tubes (i.e. 4 tubes in total) with a total 8 Ohm speaker load attached to the secondary winding. So that is a Pri:Sec impedance ratio of 2,000:8 (or 250:1)
So in theory, for an optimum primary impedance, if you're going to remove one of the pairs of output tubes, then you need to double the load that the remaining pair of output tubes 'sees' so that they don't overwork themselves. i.e. the remaining output tubes will want to 'see' a 4kOhm plate-to-plate load all other things (operating voltage and bias etc) being equal. But the OT's Pri:Sec impedance ratio (being 250:1) is a function of the Pri:Sec turns ratio, and short of pulling the OT apart and rewinding it to achieve a 500:1 impedance ratio with your 8R speaker, the easiest thing to do is to hook up a 16 Ohm speaker to the secondary of that 250:1 OT, which will ensure you have 4kOhm reflected back to the tube plates.
— He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Surf Daddies
Last edited: Mar 01, 2018 22:43:04
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tubeswell
Joined: Sep 24, 2011
Posts: 1424
Wellington, NZ
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Posted on Mar 01 2018 10:42 PM
Of course the 022897 could be wound 'wrong' ( like a few OTs for Fender amps were). In which case, just keep your 8 Ohm speaker plugged in and be done with it.
— He who dies with the most tubes... wins
Surf Daddies
Last edited: Mar 01, 2018 22:50:42
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ludobag
Joined: Jun 05, 2010
Posts: 620
at south of
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Posted on Mar 02 2018 07:10 AM
don't know really about old fender ,but for me it is blackface who have been retolexed in blonde du to faceplate ,knobs and badge
if you have the 4 tube in and the amp is 4 ohms load there is no risk to make it works with a 8 ohms cab ,you will have only less power (maybe more warm but it works)
but if you pull out 2 tubes you have to put a 8 ohms cab ,cause if you put a 4 ohms cab it will be more dangerous for the amp (as it is know ,fender normally are less sensitive than other amp to mismatch impedance )
a 4 ohms amp in 4 ohms cab works
a 4 ohms amp in 8 ohms cab works
a 8 ohms amp in 4 ohms cab is not recommended risk to burn the transformer
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JakeDobner
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
Posts: 12159
Seattle
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Posted on Mar 02 2018 09:06 AM
ludobag wrote:
don't know really about old fender ,but for me it is blackface who have been retolexed in blonde du to faceplate ,knobs and badge
It hasn't been retolex'd, it was a 1967 chassis that somebody put into and original early 1964 can. It's pretty impossible to fake certain signs that show this is original tolex.
Also, addressing earlier comments/things in general we call this transitional, the blonde cab but there is nothing transitional about it. We don't seen smooth blonde before 1964, We seen gold sparkle on smooth brown tolex only on rare 1963 Reverb units but shows up on amps in early 1964, and the raised logo doesn't show up til '64, even the black faceplate in that current darker black doesn't show up 'til '64. So, the much more likely conclusion is that Fender was going to make their redesigned amp line smooth blonde/gold sparkle and changed to black either really soon after the first ones hit or before the first ones hit and they just used up the material.
The only transition amps are the Bassman which kept the 6G6-B circuit into 1964. The Champ I think too...
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Matt22
Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 2813
Fredericksburg, Virginia
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Posted on Mar 02 2018 10:05 AM
Jake, if I remember correctly, smooth blonde/gold sparkle came out in mid-'63 with the raised logo and remained until mid-'64 when Fender switched to black/silver. The blonde tolex cases lasted for that short period as well. You are correct about the Bassman and that blackfaced/white knob black-tolex Bassman is extremely rare. I believe it was called the Tuxedo Bassman.
— Matt "tha Kat" Lentz
Skippy and the Skipjacks: 2018-
Skippyandtheskipjacks.net
https://www.facebook.com/skippyandtheskipjacks
Otto and the Ottomans: 2014-2015
The Coconauts surf band: 2009-2014
www.theamazingcoconauts.com
Group Captain and the Mandrakes 2013
http://www.gcmband.com/
The Surfside IV: 2002-2005, 2008-2009
the Del-Vamps: 1992-1999, 2006-2007
http://www.dblcrown.com/delvamps.html
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