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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Gear »

Permalink Jazzmaster and other fenders with this tremolo system not staying in tune? FIX!

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Hi all, I'm new here. I found this site quite some time ago, when searching and looking for a fix for my Fender Jazzmaster not staying in tune when I use the tremolo. Like many other sites, there were only the basic "how to's" to make these types of Fender guitars stay in tune a bit better, but, no real fix was found. So, I went to work to learn exactly how these trem systems are made and set up. I've been playing guitar for nearly 50 years, the Jazzmaster I purchased a year or so ago, is an new game for me. I' own a few Fender guitars but none that have this type of tremolo system. Anyway, I love the jazzmaster, all except the staying in tune issue. As I was saying, I was hell bent on fixing the staying in tune problem when using this type of Fender whammy/tremolo. The stay in tune problem was driving me out of tune! After a bit of study and looking closely at how these trem systems are designed, I found the faults in them. So, I fixed the faults, it was really quite easy to do. What I'm about to tell you now, many of you will say, I'm FULL OF STINKY POOPOO. Well, I will prove it to you soon, once I get a video made. But first, I'd like to know if there would be much interest from folks here in learning how you can fix this type of Fender tremolo system so you can actually use the tremolo and even do deep (all the way down to the pick guard) divebombs over and over and over and over again......and the guitar will stay in tune. One can play for hours, it will still stay in tune. I'll back this all up soon with a video that shows me beating the crud out of my Jazzmaster, whammy barring it all the way down to the pick guard, FULL DIVE BOMBMS, and it stays in tune. NO, you will not need to buy any new expensive parts, the guitar will remain 99.9% original, all except one tiny $4 part that's hidden inside the guitar that should be replaced for best results. The good thing is, anyone who is confident using a screw driver and removing your guitar strings can do this fix in about an hour or so. Are you interested in learning more about this? If so, please comment.

Last edited: Jul 28, 2016 19:14:09

Welcome to the forum. I'd like to be the first to say you're FULL OF STINKY POOPOO! Not that I really think that, but it's fun to type out Very Happy

Please share what you've learned and hopefully it'll start a lively discussion amongst all the gear heads. I personally have played JM's almost exclusively the last 10 years and have had no tuning issues. I'd even say they are (slightly) more stable than the strats I've played. Add in the brilliant trem-lock and it's a winning design for me.

The most often cited reason for instability with JM's is playing with thin strings. When you were first finding you had a problem, what gauge strings were you using?

Danny Snyder

Latest project - Now That's What I Call SURF
_
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

I'm back playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

It will be interesting to see whether or not one is having those problems. Post it.

DannySnyder wrote:

Welcome to the forum. I'd like to be the first to say you're FULL OF STINKY POOPOO!

Hahahahahaha!!!
LMAO

Hi Dan, thanks for the welcome. I use 9's. My JM, it's a Fender Standard Jazzmaster HH, little over $500 new. Made in Mexico. Perhaps your JM is a vintage/USA made? The reason I ask is because when I started searching this subject, I found lots and lots of sites where players had the same problems I had. If they did much whammy bar work at all, the guitar would go way out of tune. So, maybe this is a problem for the Mexi JM's, but it seems to me most everyone complains about the staying in tune problem. But, then again, most of my guitars that have tremolo use a locking Floyd Rose, so I can do deep repetitive divebombs and stay in tune. except my Strats, they are stock, I can get away with some dive bombing on them, they are fairly stable. From all that I could gather, the JM
tremolo system was not designed for deep and hard dive bombing. That's what many sites were saying, anyway. I've never had the good fortune to play a vintage or USA made JM, so I can't say what the difference would be in them. I now live in the boonies, no guitar stores even close by, Seattle is the closest to me, 300 miles. So, I buy/order my guitars on line now. I just became interested in Surf music lately (Bored with all the other stuff) and wanted a surf type guitar to play, so I bought this Mexi JM. It really is a nice guitar, for the money, for sure! I want to make a video and upload it, but I see I have to load it to a different server then link to it from here. I'll get that done soon...I think many players will be surprised at how well my MEXI JM stays in tune, even when it's treated like a Floyd Rose set up. It just stays in tune. You know, full whammy down, to where the strings are flopping around loose and sloppy, release the whammy and it pops right back into tune. It sure the heck didn't stay in tune before I worked it over!

Yup, I play AVRI JM's. I also use flatwound 12's. While there's no one right way to play surf music, generally the trem is used subtle to moderately. Dive bombing doesn't really happen much in my experience. perhaps we all would have more tuning problems if we were doing more dive bombs Smile

Please don't be bashful, go ahead and share with us what you invented.

Danny Snyder

Latest project - Now That's What I Call SURF
_
"With great reverb comes great responsibility" - Uncle Leo

I'm back playing keys and guitar with Combo Tezeta

Nut and bridge is why guitars go out of tune with vibrato usage, not the unit itself.

I can't wait to get "the poop" on this. My JM, weather conditions be damned, is the one I can pick out of the rack and, if it was in tune when I put it away, it's still in tune.

Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel

DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.

I recently bought the JM and luckily not having that kind of out of tune issue, but please let us know what you have found

Umar
The Mentawais
The Rentones

I haver a Jazzmaster and a Jaguar and have never had any tuning issues with either.

Los Fantasticos

DannyS. "generally the trem is used subtle to moderately." for Surf music. I do realize that, there's not much deep dive bombing and heavy string bending going on in any surf music I've heard. However, I play all sorts and styles of music. Much of it is modern rock, divebombing is a big part of lead work in modern rock. So, when I pick up my JM, I may want to play heavy rock leads with it, not just Surf or jazzy styles. I really really like the feel and tonal qualities of my JM. I think it's great for all sorts of styles of music, all except the staying in tune issues I had with it. That's why I went on a mission to fix the problem, so I could play modern rock with deep dive bombing heavy string stretching lead work with it as well. Now that I've overcome the staying in tune issue, it's one of my favorite guitars to play. Since it was an inexpensive Mexi made JM, to bring it up to my preferred standard, right out of the box, I did a full set-up on it. It wasn't to bad as it was, but, I went ahead and leveled all the frets, re-crowned and polished them, set the neck relief, did some nut work, set the intonation, and jammed the bridge stud mounts so it no longer rocks back and forth when using the trem. The bridge is now stable and stays put. That helps keep it in tune for heavy trem use. As you may know, many musicians these days are buying and and have been buying and using the JM's and Jags for modern hard rock. The 1990s grunge seen, Kurt Cobain (Nirvana)helped make the JM and Jaguar very popular. I think this is why there are so many owners of them complaining about them easily going out of tune, they are being used in a away they were not intended to be used. Many rockers these days play very hard, lots of whammy work and all. I don't believe the JM and Jags were designed for that type and style of playing. Anyway, that's my take on it. I've decided to just write my fix all out and post it here. Then later on, once I get a video made, I'll post a vid of me showing just how hard I can play my JM with repetitive deep dive bombs and string bending/slamming so you can see, I'm not pulling your legs on my claims. Stay "Tuned"...

Last edited: Jul 29, 2016 15:39:47

I am curious

Not surf but you might like it:
http://donbale.bandcamp.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA0g6Sn3e9FULMN0owd9YGw
https://soundcloud.com/fatalamanga

Y'know, or you could just tell us what you did.

SSIV

LHR wrote:

Y'know, or you could just tell us what you did.

He made the tremolo, which functions perfectly well in most cases, not function as it's designed to do. Which is fine, if you have a need to be dive-bombing all the time. Personally, I don't.

Los Fantasticos

Even among non-surf players who use off sets: grunge, alt rock players, I think of J. Mascis, Kevin Shields, Nels Cline, etc., I hear use of the whammy, but no dive bombing. When you say dive bomb I think of hard rock and metal players using super Strats with locking trem systems. Fender off-sets seem like an awkward tool for that style of playing. Just my humble opinion.
BTW, I never have tuning issues with my Jazzmaster, but then I use it for surf instro.

What's all the mystery about, why not just tell us what the fix is? You've done three lengthy posts already talking up your fix, but don't reveal what it is. Why all the suspense?
I never have any problem with staying in tune -- I make sure the nut is cut correctly and well lubricated, and I make sure the strings aren't binding anywhere else. I also spend a few minutes getting the strings to seat well and 'lock up' on the tuning post. There is no need for locking tuners or floyd roses or special strings or complex modifications, as long as everything is well balanced and adjusted and the nut is cut correctly, the guitar will stay in tune even with aggressive vibrato work.
Here's a video explaining how to achieve this with a strat - but this works with any tremolo equiped guitar I do this on my Strat, my Mosrite, and my Jazzmaster (although I don't play the JM much). This method is very easy and really works:

https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

Last edited: Jul 31, 2016 08:22:06

psychonaut wrote:
Because, in order to write this all out in good detail so it's all understood well, it's a long post of information. It's not just one little tweek. In order to make it so it stays in tune, there's many things that should be done. Many of these steps are well known, but, when it's all put together, it works exceptionally well.

What's all the mystery about, why not just tell us what the fix is? You've done three lengthy posts already talking up your fix, but don't reveal what it is. Why all the suspense?
I never have any problem with staying in tune -- I make sure the nut is cut correctly and well lubricated, and I make sure the strings aren't binding anywhere else. I also spend a few minutes getting the strings to seat well and 'lock up' on the tuning post. There is no need for locking tuners or floyd roses or special strings or complex modifications, as long as everything is well balanced and adjusted and the nut is cut correctly, the guitar will stay in tune even with aggressive vibrato work.
Here's a video explaining how to achieve this with a strat - but this works with any tremolo equiped guitar I do this on my Strat, my Mosrite, and my Jazzmaster (although I don't play the JM much). This method is very easy and really works:

This took me some time to write this all out. I hope some of you give this a go. If you do, please let us know how it works for you. It sure the heck made a different guitar out of my JM! I was going to attach a word document, but, don't see how to do that. I see picture attach, but not a document attach?

Last edited: Jul 31, 2016 11:24:56

So, looks like I'll do it this way...

This may seem like a lot of time consuming work, it really isn't. It took me about an hour and half or so to complete. I recently bought a new Mexican made Fender Jazzmaster HH, little over $500. It would not stay in tune worth beans if I used the tremolo for more than just light vibro movements. So, I took the trem system out of the guitar and apart, it took me about 3 seconds to see where the problem was. Once apart, look very closely at the "contact friction points" of the trem system, you'll see those two surfaces of metal are very rough, bumpy and pitted. If you've been using your trem much, you'll see where the one rough, sharp edged, pitted, bumpy piece of metal has made deep scratches and gouges in the opposing metal part. That's exactly where the trouble is coming from (To much friction, that friction causes the trem system to hang up and not slip back into the "In tune position" Plus, the stock fender trem spring is a bit to weak to bring the string tension back to the correct tuning after whammying around, because it's not pushing the trem assembly back to the exact position it was sitting at when it was all correctly tuned up. If you use a heavy gauge of strings, (12's or 13's) replacing the spring may not be necessary. I personally like 9's and 10's, never any heavier than that for me.
Here's what you need to do. Follow the link to see the tremolo parts I’m talking about. https://s3.amazonaws.com/sg101.forum.photos/REKMIwlASZi1cMVoJyll4g.jpg First file the flat edge of the (L) shaped piece of metal to remove all the lumps and pits that it has on the contact surface. Then sand and polish those two metal parts right where they contact one another, where they rock back and forth on one another. Do a good job of sanding, then polish the two surfaces to a mirror like finish, don't skimp on the work here, get those two parts polished to the point there are not even fine hairline scratches in them, you want those parts (L) Shape and (S) Shape to be shinny and glassy smooth. Go here to learn how to mirror polish steel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6bvbRO8sJY. In this Video, they are using power sanders and polishers, I did this sanding and polishing by hand. Once it has a mirror like finish, apply some good quality lithium grease on those two friction point surfaces. I also filed the very end/edge of the (L) shaped piece to be slightly rounded (Contoured Arch shape) instead of leaving it the stock shape, as it's sharp & flat on the end. Do the rounding up with a file step before sanding and polishing. Rounding it off will allow that edge to have much less friction on the opposing metal part. When you look at the image and the parts I'm talking about, (Yellow Dot) area, you can see why those two parts create a lot of friction. They do not match up well, look at how the (L) shaped metal part is very flat with sharp edges, that's why it gouging and making deep scratches in the opposing metal part, in turn, that's causing a lot of friction and that's why it's hanging up and is reluctant to return to the proper tune position when you do deep whammy dives.
Now go to an auto parts or motor cycle parts house or small engine repair shop, find an engine VALVE SPRING that's close to the same size and dimensions of the stock fender spring, most engine valve springs will be stiffer and more powerful than the one that came in your fender. Install the new spring. If you can't find one that's a close match in length to the stock fender spring, you can grind or cut it down to the proper length. Yes, the heavy duty spring will make the trem a bit stiffer, but, that's all good with me.
Another thing to do that helps stabilize the tuning when using the tremolo.
Jam the rocking bridge into place, so it will not rock back and forth when using the tremolo. Here's how I did that. I took a regular aluminum pop can, used a pair of scissors and cut two small strips from the can. Cut them to be perfect length and width to make a complete, tight wrap around each bridge post. Don't cut them to long to where they overlap on the ends once they are wrapped around the posts. This seemed to create a perfect fit. I had to force the bridge posts a bit to slip it back down into the stud holes. Now the bridge will be tight and will no longer rock back and forth. This beats buying an upgraded bridge that can cost $200 or more as a lot of JM owners do!
Note: There's also a TRICK way to tune that helps heaps to keep your tremolo fitted guitar in tune. I'm sure some of you may already know this trick, here it is for the ones who may not...Tune one string, then do a few deep dive bombs, check the tuning on that one string again, re-tune it again until it stays in tune after you dive bomb it 2 or 3 times. Generally you may need to tune and dive bomb each string more than once to get it to stay in tune after dive bombing it. Continue on in this manner with each string, one at a time. Tune it, dive bomb it a few times then re-tune it until each string stays in perfect tune after dive bombing. Now all strings should stay in sync (in tune) with one another during trem use.
The above tuning method works well for most any trem, not just the Jazzmaster and Jaguar models. If you own a Tele or Strat with a floating trem, try this tuning method, it really does help heaps. Also, be sure your nut is cut correctly and lube it well with graphite so the strings will slip back and forth over the nut easily. Also, you may want to raise your string tree/s a bit to relieve some of the string angle and friction they have on the strings, this will help the strings to easily slip back into proper pitch.
One more tip. When stringing your guitar, be sure to string it so the string wrap around the posts are finished off so there is very little string angle coming over the nut of the guitar (final string wrap should be at or near the top of the string post, not down low on the post). You want just enough string angle coming over the nut to keep the strings in place over and in the slots in the nut. The more angle the strings have coming over the nut, the more the strings may be inclined to hang up at that point. Less angle is best. Even if you don't do the work I outlined above, try this tuning method anyway, I'll bet you will be amazed at how much better it will stay in tune. What's really cool about this work, you don't need to spend a bunch of money and you can keep all the original parts on your Fender, it will remain 100% stock, all except the upgraded trem spring, that spring is hidden under the whammy assembly anyway. If you do all that I have outlined here, you can play for hour’s even hard play, your guitar will simply stay in tune. I have other guitars that have locking Floyd Rose trem systems, after doing this work and set-up on my JM, I feel it's very close to being as stable as a Floyd Rose trem system. Nope, not Kiddin'! So there you have it, enjoy!
I'm currently working with a spring manufacture to supply upgraded springs that will be a perfect fit for this project...
If you don't use your tremolo for tremolo pitch-ups/pullups you can adjust your tremolo spring tension to full tension. That will work OK if you can't find or don't want to replace the spring. At full tension, the stock spring will do the job, but, you won't be able to do pull-ups/pich-ups with it. I have no experience with USA made or Vintage JM's or Jags, they may have been made to a higher standard of work done on those 2 "rough "metal parts I'm referring to. Perhaps that rough stuff is only on the lesser expensive Mexican made fenders, I just don't know...In any event, it wouldn't hurt to take a look at your USA/vintage made Fender. Cleaning, polishing and lubing those parts would surly make an improvement.
I realize, this work changes the dynamics of these types of guitars. Personally I feel it's a big improvement. It allows me to use this guitar for most any style of music and playing. This work makes these guitars much more versatile. I own many high end electric guitars. My $500 Mexican made Jazzmaster has become one of my favorites!

Last edited: Jul 31, 2016 11:37:50

I do not have a Jazzmaster or Jaguar, but I am interested in picking one up sometime. I've been on this forum for close to 10 years and I have never heard of anybody here complain of vibrato tuning issues on their respective guitars of choice. Strats, Bigsby equipped guitars yes, but never on jags or jazzys. I'm sorry, but I'm ready to call stinky poo poo on this until you prove a lot of us wrong. The only thing I've heard that could be the cause of your problem are lighter gauge strings. I've heard it's best to use 11s and up. Of course I saw that on YouTube and it could be wrong. Don't leave us hanging. Tell us or show us what you're doing or you will be considered full of stinky poo poo.

Either you surf, or you fight.

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