Clarry
Joined: Oct 01, 2014
Posts: 519
Streatham, London
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Posted on Apr 08 2016 05:22 AM
I’ve got a friend who has a guitar with the name Theseus on the headstock. I’m not sure if many of you maybe owners of guitars of this nature.
Basically, he bought a guitar he liked, then one day decided to change the pickups and wiring. A few months later he changed the neck. A few months after that he changed the body and hardware. It was basically a totally different guitar, to the point that all the components from the original, he put back together.
So, when does the first guitar become a different guitar or does it? Has anyone else done this?
Philosophers have been arguing over this for years based on the story of the ship of Theseus:
The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned from Crete had thirty oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their places, in so much that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the same.
— Plutarch, Theseus
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Kawentzmann
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 1059
Berlin, Germany
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Posted on Apr 08 2016 07:38 AM
I once wanted to replace just the body of a strat and ended up only keeping the pick-ups. To me that’s a new guitar. With vintage violins I think as long as the top is original the instrument is regarded a Stradivarius, or whoever was the maker of it.
— The Exotic Guitar of Kahuna Kawentzmann
You can get the boy out of the Keynes era, but you can’t get the Keynes era out of the boy.
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josheboy
Joined: Mar 13, 2009
Posts: 2365
Twin Cities, MN
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Posted on Apr 08 2016 01:35 PM
Guitars and Philosophy! Two of my favorite subjects!!!
Metaphysical concepts of identity and continuity and form versus empirical physicality and utility. My brain loves stuff like this!
That's an interesting twist using a modified guitar instead of a ship. Where indeed is the line between new guitar and old guitar?
For those that want to dig a little deeper, here's a cool video about the Ship of Theseus thought experiment.
Thanks for posting this, Clarry!
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Kawentzmann
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 1059
Berlin, Germany
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Posted on Apr 08 2016 08:05 PM
In all solutions we don’t end up with the Ship of Theseus, but The Theseus Memorial Ship, even when rebuilt from original parts, but by a different crew.
To honour this process of constantly manufacturing new stuff that looks vintage, Japan is rebuilding an old temple every 20 years.
In the case of a ship I would say replacing the keel makes it a new one. Why not go with oak instead of maple while we’re at it?
— The Exotic Guitar of Kahuna Kawentzmann
You can get the boy out of the Keynes era, but you can’t get the Keynes era out of the boy.
Last edited: Apr 08, 2016 20:37:49
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windmill
Joined: Mar 22, 2006
Posts: 269
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Posted on Apr 09 2016 06:22 PM
Well I've got an axe that belonged to my grandfather. Had to replace the handle a couple of times and put a new head on it......
— Freshwater Surfin'
The Murray Basin
Australia
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Kawentzmann
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 1059
Berlin, Germany
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Posted on Apr 09 2016 07:44 PM
windmill wrote:
Well I've got an axe that belonged to my grandfather. Had to replace the handle a couple of times and put a new head on it......
With a more detailed vocabulary that would be Grandfather Memorial Axe. Anything physical is replaced, but the memory stays attached to it.
— The Exotic Guitar of Kahuna Kawentzmann
You can get the boy out of the Keynes era, but you can’t get the Keynes era out of the boy.
Last edited: Apr 09, 2016 19:45:25
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Brian
Joined: Feb 25, 2006
Posts: 19276
Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Posted on Apr 09 2016 08:56 PM
Reminds me of this
“Consider yourself. I want you to imagine a scene from your childhood. Pick something evocative... Something you can remember clearly, something you can see, feel, maybe even smell, as if you were really there. After all, you really were there at the time, weren't you? How else would you remember it? But here is the bombshell: you WEREN'T there. Not a single atom that is in your body today was there when that event took place. Every bit of you has been replaced many times over... The point is that you are like a cloud: something that persists over long periods, while simultaneously being in flux. Matter flows from place to place and momentarily comes together to be you. Whatever you are, therefore, you are not the stuff of which you are made.”
― Steve Grand
— Site dude - S3 Agent #202
Need help with the site? SG101 FAQ - Send me a private message - Email me
"It starts... when it begins" -- Ralf Kilauea
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Clarry
Joined: Oct 01, 2014
Posts: 519
Streatham, London
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Posted on Apr 10 2016 04:20 AM
windmill wrote:
Well I've got an axe that belonged to my grandfather. Had to replace the handle a couple of times and put a new head on it......
Known in the UK as Trigger's Broom from "Only Fools and Horses"
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Kawentzmann
Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 1059
Berlin, Germany
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Posted on Apr 10 2016 10:44 AM
Information such as memories and genes can be copied quite accurately, hence we can recognize a person after 30 years. Every wrinkle and spot being in the same place.
There was a german luthier called Artur Lang who always built two guitars simultaneously. I am assuming he cut the parts from the same boards. It’s not reported whether his customers could find any differences.
However, a guitar that has everything replaced is a different instrument, especially to the owner. And I can’t think of another reason to start the transformation.
— The Exotic Guitar of Kahuna Kawentzmann
You can get the boy out of the Keynes era, but you can’t get the Keynes era out of the boy.
Last edited: Apr 10, 2016 10:48:07
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D22
Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Posts: 2054
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Posted on Apr 10 2016 11:27 AM
Change your pick and amazing things happen.
—
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Clarry
Joined: Oct 01, 2014
Posts: 519
Streatham, London
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Posted on Apr 10 2016 12:00 PM
You lot are brilliant! I love the philosophy, I live the rationalism.
(Runs off to change picks)
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