As a companion to the Arpeggios! thread, I pose this question:

Who (besides me :-)) knows upon what scale is "Miserlou" based?

Ah, Johhny, you said a phrase that gets me on my soap box ( nothing personal mind you). What scale is it based? BASED!! Which usually means the tune takes alot of notes from a particular scale but the artist has added a fair smattering of notes that arent in that scale in order to compose the song. So, the tune is in what scale now these extra notes have been added? Could be anything really, call it what you like, dobroidian maybe? As I said on the arps thread, I like theory but surely the best sounding scale is the set of notes you use to compose your tune, ant need to pigeon hole them?

According to Wikipedia, which is infallible, it's the double harmonic, aka the Arabic scale, aka the Byzantine scale.

Is that it?

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Last edited: Mar 01, 2020 08:11:23

JohnnyDobro wrote:

Wiki is cheating, but that's correct!!! It's also called a Hungarian or Gypsy Minor.

I don't believe the Hungarian scale is the same as the Byzantine scale, though I forget the differences now.

A few years ago, I sat down and figured out all the differences between several more exotic, middle-eastern/Indian/Mediterrenean scales: Byzantine (AKA Miserlou & Hava Nagila), Phrygian, Harmonic Minor and Hungarian, and maybe one or two others that are escaping me right now. I practiced those quite a bit, and I think at this point I've kinda absorbed them into my musical vocabulary. But I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly what they are right now. I seem to remember that The primary differences have to do with the major vs minor 3rds, combined in 'unorthodox' ways with major vs. minor 7ths and sometimes flattened 2nds.

I do truly love the sound of those scales, and I think one of the major reasons why I'm attracted to surf music is that it's so easy to incorporate those exotic sounds into it. On the other hand, I mostly dislike the sound of the more jazzy scales, which often are like fingernails on the chalkboard to my ears - to overgeneralize more than a bit.

Ivan
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JohnnyDobro wrote:

The only minor scale that will suffer a diatonic key signature is natural minor, which is the 6th mode of the major scale. In the same sense, Hungarian minor is the 4th mode of the Byzantine scale, if memory serves.

Huh??? I must admit to only have some vague notion of what you're talking about.

Here's how I think about it - really boneheaded and simplistic, but it works for me!

Phrygian - look it up (major scale with flattened 2nd, 6th and 7th?)
Byzantine - Phrygian with a major 7th replacing the minor 7th

Harmonic Minor - regular Minor with a major 7th replacing the minor 7th

Hungarian - regular Minor with a raised 4th and (I think) a major 7th (though it can also be played with a minor 7th - though that scale probably has a different name)

That's alls I know. Maybe. I may know less.

Ivan
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On the byzantine derived from the phrygian: I think the flatted third is also raised a half step, to a natural, along with seventh.
I've been working these scales a lot to drum their signature sounds through my thick skull, along with the"Spanish Gypsy" scale.
Thanks Ivan. At least i know I'm going in the right direction.

Misirlou is in the scale which resembles the Byzantine Tone 6 or more properly Plagal Tone 2 (plagal indicating the relationship of the perfect 4th from tonic) It's an old Anatolian melody popular among Rembetes of Piraeus, the emigres from the population exchange that happened after the collapse of the Greek "Megali Idea" to recapture Constantinople... it's also well known throughout the Levant, from whence Dick Dale Hales. It's essentially an Oud tune adapted to the fretted guitar, which changes the intonation. Tremolo picking is also very Oudistic.
The scale for Misirlou goes: 1 b2 3 4 5 b6, 7
(b = 'flat' and 'natural' assumed)
THe 'Gypsy' or 'Hungarian' scale is very different, running the gamut: 1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 b7
Obviously the Gypsy scale has more to do with Indian music and the Byzantine T6/plagal 2 is more of an Arabic/Mediterranean thing.

JohnnyDobro wrote:

Wiki is cheating, but that's correct!!! It's also called a Hungarian or Gypsy Minor. Personally with regard to Miserlou, I always thought of it as being in the 5th mode of an A harmonic minor scale with a raised 4th degree and it is that, but that's also too cumbersome and I knew there had to be a simpler way to think of it. I also find it interesting that unlike major or melodic, harmonic or natural minor that there is no tertially based chord to be built on that raised 4th degree and this scale has consecutive half-steps follwed by a leap of a third! How cool is it that to harmonize this scale consistently and evenly, you have to start with 4ths!?!?!?!? Very cool?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Squink Out!

I always thought Misirlou scale as a Phrygian Dominant scale with a maj7. Never really named it but I've seen it called double harmonic often and called it that too.

Writing this out made things seem more complicated but it feels simple to me because it's how my brain was able to understand it best and help me when I was stuck years ago.

I tend to switch my mental focus per chord change so I use a few extra modes to make each chord a different "thing" in my head. I also tend to think in "arpeggios plus extra notes" more than I do in scales.
I usually use the following modes for Harmonic Minor depending on the chord centre

Harmonic Minor 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Phrygian Dominant: 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Dorian #4: 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
Lydian #2: 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7

I swap in what I call Gypsy Minor (harmonic minor with #4 ... maybe the name is wrong oh well) and it's modes whenever I feel like it. I say I see these more as variations on harmonic minor and it's modes than anything.

Gypsy Minor: 1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7
Phrygian Dominant Maj7 (AKA Double Harmonic?): 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7

-Pierre
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To further complicate things, you could also think of it as the fifth mode of the harmonic minor with a sharp 4. Since Misirlou is in E(something) it's the fifth of A harmonic minor, with a D#.