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SurfGuitar101 Forums » Gear »

Permalink What effects pedals work best with reverb?

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morphball

da-ron
I bought a Tremelo pedal (Surf Trem) but could never figure out whether Trem goes before Reverb, or what.

Reverb should be dead last in the signal chain right before the amp, especially spring & tube driven reverb.

Not necessarily, morphball - given that most surf guitarists use the trem from their amps, in that case the trem comes after the reverb - and that's been a pretty effective sound for the past 50 years! If you don't have an amp with trem, but it has an effects loop, than one could emulate that by putting the trem pedal into the effects loop, and having it after the reverb unit.

To some of the other comments, reverb and echo are very different and distinct effects, and it's perfectly acceptable to combine the two - I've done it for the past 15 years, and it's been a fine. Of course, there are many other surf players that do it, too. If not done right, it can be a bloody mess, but if you balance the two effects correctly, it sounds great. And of course, you can accentuate the echo and keep the verb low, going more for the Atlantics or even Shadows kind of a sound, or you can crank the verb and sculpt the echo around it, to just get a bigger sound. I do think in general that the echo pedal should go before reverb, but I'm sure you could get some good sounds doing it the other way around, too.

Ivan
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

Ivan, when combining, do you echo your verb, or verb your echo? On my board, I've got my Carbon Copy right before my tank, works pretty well, but was wondering if that was the generally accepted order for surf-ish combination of the two effects.

EricB
Ivan, when combining, do you echo your verb, or verb your echo? On my board, I've got my Carbon Copy right before my tank, works pretty well, but was wondering if that was the generally accepted order for surf-ish combination of the two effects.

Yep, Eric, that's exactly right. I tend to use a longer echo setting than most surf gutiarist, who prefer slapback. My repeats are around 400 ms, which is longer than most analog echo pedals can generate (usually they're capped around 330 ms). The reason for that is the Atlantics influence, and since the Echolette echo unit they used was capable of producing a fairly long echo, that's what they often used, and that's what I've gravited towards, as well.

My Korg Dynamic Echo pedal has a low-end roll-off control, which I think is absolutely vital to emulate old tape echos. Most pedals only roll off the treble on the repeats to emulate tape echo units, but if you listen to the recordings that used those early '60s tape echo machines, they had as much or even more of low-end roll-off than high end roll-off. I find that allows the repeats to blend into the reverb much better, too, and just give you a big sound rather than a distinct effect. I usually double pick and play very aggressively with the echo pedal on, too, and it stays fairly distinct and powerful.

Ivan
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

IvanP

morphball

da-ron
I bought a Tremelo pedal (Surf Trem) but could never figure out whether Trem goes before Reverb, or what.

Reverb should be dead last in the signal chain right before the amp, especially spring & tube driven reverb.

Not necessarily, morphball - given that most surf guitarists use the trem from their amps, in that case the trem comes after the reverb - and that's been a pretty effective sound for the past 50 years! If you don't have an amp with trem, but it has an effects loop, than one could emulate that by putting the trem pedal into the effects loop, and having it after the reverb unit.

Doh, you had to bring up the exceptions I didn't think of! Although he was just talking about a tremolo pedal, not onboard, I would probably think guitar -> trem -> reverb -> amp would be ideal in his case. And I don't know what this "effects loop" thing is, I can't find it on the back of my amp, so it doesn't exist! Twisted Evil Slightly OT, based on the volume drops many have mentioned here, I'm surprised so many still use onboard trem. (I guess it's more direct and you can compensate with a volume control if one already has it in the path, but still.)

Pretty much the priority I use from beginning of signal to amp (something I've carried with me from another site/forum for a while):

1) Tuner (unprocessed input = more accurate tuning)
2) Filters (envelopes, wah's...)
3) Compressors (does anyone here use one of these?)
4) Overdrive (normal OD, Trans. OD, fuzz, distortion... anything producing harmonics)
5) Modulation (trems, phasers, chorus, flangers)
6) Volume (before reverb effects so that slapbacks, tails, etc aren't affected)
7) Reverb, echo, delay... last, I say, because it makes the most sense to apply this effect to a fully processed signal.

Mike
http://www.youtube.com/morphballio

IvanP

EricB
Ivan, when combining, do you echo your verb, or verb your echo? On my board, I've got my Carbon Copy right before my tank, works pretty well, but was wondering if that was the generally accepted order for surf-ish combination of the two effects.

Yep, Eric, that's exactly right. I tend to use a longer echo setting than most surf gutiarist, who prefer slapback. My repeats are around 400 ms, which is longer than most analog echo pedals can generate (usually they're capped around 330 ms). The reason for that is the Atlantics influence, and since the Echolette echo unit they used was capable of producing a fairly long echo, that's what they often used, and that's what I've gravited towards, as well.

The MXR CC does 600ms, but I just cap it off at about 400ms because of the Cossacks influence. Very Happy

Mike
http://www.youtube.com/morphballio

I run from from my guitar to fuzz (fuzzbrite), then to a tuner (korg pitchblack), to an Echoplex, to the reverb unit, to the amp - and I use the amp tremolo, I also tend to use fairly long echoes, but I usuallt turn the reverb off if I use slapback echo.

http://reverbnation.com/thecoffindaggers
https://www.facebook.com/coffindagger
http://coffindaggers.com/
http://thecoffindaggers.bandcamp.com

morphball
The MXR CC does 600ms, but I just cap it off at about 400ms because of the Cossacks influence. Very Happy

That's really funny. In the past I've mentioed on this site that I love the Cossacks sound, but I can't use delay as "tastefully" as Ivan so I don't. Guess where my pedal maxes out... Laughing I think I'll try to borrow one with a longer delay. May change my opinion.

I run an Xotic RC Booster Clean Boost into a Line 6 Echo Park into a reverb tank. I'm fairly addicted to the RC Booster at this point. Its always on.

Ryan
The Secret Samurai Website
The Secret Samurai on Facebook

Last edited: Nov 16, 2010 16:06:17

morphball
The MXR CC does 600ms, but I just cap it off at about 400ms because of the Cossacks influence. Very Happy

EH claims the DMM does 550ms. Side by side my Echoplex's have a bit more. I've read something they do like 650ms which sounds about right comparing the two. I'll have to test in my DAW, now you guys sparked my curiosity. Hmmm

Electro Echo Chamber, The Technical Side Of Time Based Effects. Echo, Reverb, Delay, Analog, Digial, And More...

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/electroechochamber/

IvanP wrote:

EricB
Ivan, when combining, do you echo your verb, or verb your echo? On my board, I've got my Carbon Copy right before my tank, works pretty well, but was wondering if that was the generally accepted order for surf-ish combination of the two effects.

Yep, Eric, that's exactly right. I tend to use a longer echo setting than most surf gutiarist, who prefer slapback. My repeats are around 400 ms, which is longer than most analog echo pedals can generate (usually they're capped around 330 ms). The reason for that is the Atlantics influence, and since the Echolette echo unit they used was capable of producing a fairly long echo, that's what they often used, and that's what I've gravited towards, as well.

My Korg Dynamic Echo pedal has a low-end roll-off control, which I think is absolutely vital to emulate old tape echos. Most pedals only roll off the treble on the repeats to emulate tape echo units, but if you listen to the recordings that used those early '60s tape echo machines, they had as much or even more of low-end roll-off than high end roll-off. I find that allows the repeats to blend into the reverb much better, too, and just give you a big sound rather than a distinct effect. I usually double pick and play very aggressively with the echo pedal on, too, and it stays fairly distinct and powerful.

Ivan, I’ve listened carefully to some Space Cossacks live videos and really hear pretty long delay when you check up sound. But during the tune the sound is tight and focused, while when I switch on 400 ms reverb the sound is pretty washed out((( what’s the secret, the hands, secret settings or what?) thanks!

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

https://www.facebook.com/waikikimakaki/
https://soundcloud.com/waikiki-makaki

Samurai wrote:

IvanP wrote:

EricB
Ivan, when combining, do you echo your verb, or verb your echo? On my board, I've got my Carbon Copy right before my tank, works pretty well, but was wondering if that was the generally accepted order for surf-ish combination of the two effects.

Yep, Eric, that's exactly right. I tend to use a longer echo setting than most surf gutiarist, who prefer slapback. My repeats are around 400 ms, which is longer than most analog echo pedals can generate (usually they're capped around 330 ms). The reason for that is the Atlantics influence, and since the Echolette echo unit they used was capable of producing a fairly long echo, that's what they often used, and that's what I've gravited towards, as well.

My Korg Dynamic Echo pedal has a low-end roll-off control, which I think is absolutely vital to emulate old tape echos. Most pedals only roll off the treble on the repeats to emulate tape echo units, but if you listen to the recordings that used those early '60s tape echo machines, they had as much or even more of low-end roll-off than high end roll-off. I find that allows the repeats to blend into the reverb much better, too, and just give you a big sound rather than a distinct effect. I usually double pick and play very aggressively with the echo pedal on, too, and it stays fairly distinct and powerful.

Ivan, I’ve listened carefully to some Space Cossacks live videos and really hear pretty long delay when you check up sound. But during the tune the sound is tight and focused, while when I switch on 400 ms reverb the sound is pretty washed out((( what’s the secret, the hands, secret settings or what?) thanks!

Well, I'm not sure what else to say besides what I already wrote above. It just somehow seems to work! I don't know exactly why. But I would say dialing in the exact right 'mix' is obviously key - where the echo is still present enough in the signal but doesn't interfere with the playing. And I find that rolling off the low-end of the repeats helps a lot with the echo not interfering with the main signal. I guess the rest IS in the hands! I've been doing this so long that I do think I subconsciously adjust my phrasing to work with the echo repeats more effectively - I've not really analyzed this very much, but I have noticed that I automatically adjust my playing given what's happening with the echo. But all my echo pedals are programmed with the right echo so it doesn't vary at all, so no adjustment is necessary in the great majority of cases.

I should also mention that the echo will respond differently to picking dynamics, and I do exploit that - sometimes I'll pick a note in a way to make the echo pop-out a little bit more, while other times in a way that'll keep it a bit more subdued.

I don't know if that helps. Let me know.

Ivan
The Madeira Official Website
The Madeira on Facebook
The Blair-Pongracic Band on Facebook
The Space Cossacks on Facebook
The Madeira Channel on YouTube

It helps a lot, Ivan, thanks!

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

https://www.facebook.com/waikikimakaki/
https://soundcloud.com/waikiki-makaki

One of the video examples (imo) of what Ivan's talking about is on the Just Hank Marvin video wherein he demonstrates some of his echoes with a muted note, versus what it sounds like, legato, in the song. Even for Apache he confesses that it wasn't even tapped to be in time with the song "but it just seems to work." When one is "in" the song that low-end rolloff Ivan mentioned really does help the repeats not get in the way of the note following the one just played - yields a luxurious complement to reverb but neither really competing with the other, and a longer-than-average delay with multiple repeats doesn't seem so when actually being used.

In my case, I dove into this for just a bit when I first got my El Capistan and took a look at the different tape machines & how Strymon approached their settings. (Because Meazzi is not Echolette is not Echoplex is not Echorec, etc.) You really just have to play with it. (I literally took 2 long patch cords to the El Cap, put it on the desk with guitar, pencil & paper & started writing some things down, which over time I can pretty much now just flip or spin to.)

But Ivan's tip to roll-off the low end for melodic stuff has stood up well, even for some echo gently spiced into Penetrators stuff as Eddie Katcher mentioned that Rip may have occasionally used some tape echo when in the studio.

Wes
SoCal ex-pat with a snow shovel

DISCLAIMER: The above is opinion/suggestion only & should not be used for mission planning/navigation, tweaking of instruments, beverage selection, or wardrobe choices.

I need to try some echo or delay with low end roll off)

Waikiki Makaki surf-rock band from Ukraine

https://www.facebook.com/waikikimakaki/
https://soundcloud.com/waikiki-makaki

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