The_Beach_Berserkers
Joined: Jul 01, 2020
Posts: 35
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Posted on Mar 28 2021 05:08 AM
Greetings!
I'm struggling a bit with getting the right sound on my guitar amp recordings so I need some advise.
Gear: Pedals -> Surfybear Metal -> DRRI (I got this recently, so I am not quite used to it yet). Some favorite settings?
Mics: SM57 almost close up to the cloth (halfway center-edge on speaker membrane) + Røde NT-something in various positions - it really doesn't do much difference.
When I play back the recording, the reverb seems to be sucked out of the sound. What am I doing wrong? Not enough Reverb? Silly mic placement?
Help, please!
Svend
— Surf, spies, cowboys and aliens. We've got'em all covered...
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djangodeadman
Joined: Jan 25, 2007
Posts: 1564
Brighton UK
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Posted on Mar 28 2021 05:32 AM
Are you recording each mic to it’s own channel? If you are, how does the SM57 channel sound on its own? If you’re somehow mixing the two mics to one channel, stop doing that.
When you use two mics to record the same source you can run into issues with phase and/or time alignment. These issues could account for what you are hearing. If you have recorded the two mics to one channel, there is nothing you can subsequently do to address these issues. If you have recorded them separately, there are things that you can do and, at some point, it would be worth an internet search to find out what those are.
However, I would start by recording just the SM57. The positioning of this mic that you have described sounds like a sensible starting point, but experiment with a few different positions between the centre and edge of the speaker cone and also with the mic turned slightly off axis. Keep trying until you can get a sound that you like with just the one mic. Once you have that sorted, you can try to experiment with recording the two mics to separate channels and blending them, while taking account of what you have learned about phase and alignment.
Keep in mind that many very good guitar recordings have been made with a single SM57.
— Los Fantasticos
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cirecc
Joined: Mar 06, 2006
Posts: 292
seattle, wa
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Posted on Mar 28 2021 11:35 AM
I agree with djangodeadman. I would just try it with the sm57 and see what works. I’m not sure that having the second mic will really benefit the sound in the overall mix when it is all said and done anyway (just my opinion). That being said, you should just be able to mute one of the tracks assuming they were recorded into separate tracks. If the issue is phase related, then you’ll hear the difference immediately.
The other place I might think could be an issue could be your interface. Is it normally clear and transparent (have you recorded other things on it that sounded as they should)? Is anything getting compressed or gated out? Is there any peaking happening?
Also, there might not be enough reverb or the tone could be too low on it if you’re just losing it in the mix. What are your reverb settings?
— -Eric
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The_Beach_Berserkers
Joined: Jul 01, 2020
Posts: 35
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Posted on Mar 29 2021 08:26 AM
Thanks for inputs. I record the two mics on separate tracks.
I've been working on the amp/surfy sound today. Here's my take on it: It sounds better and more transparent on the Nornal chanel. Cleaner, better sounding reverb than in the Vibrato chanel. Maybe because the build in reverb and trem adds two more gain stages...
Next: mic positioning.
— Surf, spies, cowboys and aliens. We've got'em all covered...
Listen to
The Beach Berserkers on Bandcamp
Last edited: Mar 29, 2021 08:27:19
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DeathTide
Joined: Apr 13, 2018
Posts: 1341
New Orleans
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Posted on Mar 29 2021 09:30 AM
I have found that the edge of the speaker is where the drips live! Center of the cone is super bassy.
EDIT: This is backwards, I am the opposite of right here! After listening and moving the mic around, it was clear I had somehow turned the experience around. Dead center of the cone was the most treble, and drips. The rim is super bassy and almost no drips. Getting old I guess! So sorry for the confusion.
— Daniel Deathtide
Last edited: Apr 25, 2021 11:56:46
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The_Beach_Berserkers
Joined: Jul 01, 2020
Posts: 35
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Posted on Mar 29 2021 09:46 AM
Theoretically it should be the opposite!
— Surf, spies, cowboys and aliens. We've got'em all covered...
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nedorama
Joined: Oct 10, 2009
Posts: 219
South Bay, CA
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Posted on Mar 29 2021 09:56 AM
Moving the mic 1/4 of an inch can result in big tonal changes - a lot of this is trial and error - on the edge of the cone or the center, touching the grille or 1/2" off... Vibrato channel does introduce slightly more gain than the Normal channel, but regardless you should get a great sound from either channel. Using a flashlight to see where the cone and dustcap are through the grille works well.
Agree on starting with getting a great amp sound first with just the SM57. Once you like that sound, then work on adding the Rode to it, although you may find that once you add the guitar to the track, the SM57 by itself is fine.
I record my amps either with a 57 midway between the cone edge and dust cap, or a Sennheiser e906 draped over the cab the same way.
—
'65 Fender Tremolux, '74 Princeton; 77 Vibrolux Reverb; '81 Princeton Reverb
'65-66 Hilgen Basso Grande
Dr. Z MAZ 18 Jr. + 1x12 Cab
Various Telecasters and noise-making pedals
Farfisa Compact Duo
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DeathTide
Joined: Apr 13, 2018
Posts: 1341
New Orleans
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Posted on Mar 29 2021 10:46 AM
The_Beach_Berserkers wrote:
Theoretically it should be the opposite!
I have experienced the dome to be bassy and the rim to be trebely. I had a Senny e609 dangling higher than normal, almost directly n front of the rim, and DANG there were crazy drips going on over there!
EDIT: This is backwards, I am the opposite of right here! After listening and moving the mic around, it was clear I had somehow turned the experience around. Dead center of the cone was the most treble, and drips. The rim is super bassy and almost no drips. Getting old I guess! So sorry for the confusion.
— Daniel Deathtide
Last edited: Apr 25, 2021 11:57:05
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The_Beach_Berserkers
Joined: Jul 01, 2020
Posts: 35
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Posted on Mar 29 2021 11:39 AM
Alright thanks. I will check it out!
— Surf, spies, cowboys and aliens. We've got'em all covered...
Listen to
The Beach Berserkers on Bandcamp
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ArtS
Joined: May 09, 2008
Posts: 1249
Isle of Kent, MD
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Posted on Mar 30 2021 10:33 AM
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The_Beach_Berserkers
Joined: Jul 01, 2020
Posts: 35
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Posted on Mar 30 2021 02:59 PM
I did a thorough mic position test today.
My favorite is
1. SM57 close to cloth halfway from center of speaker angled towards the center. This way I get good highs and some lows as well.
The second mic really doesn't add much...
— Surf, spies, cowboys and aliens. We've got'em all covered...
Listen to
The Beach Berserkers on Bandcamp
Last edited: Mar 30, 2021 15:00:20
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djangodeadman
Joined: Jan 25, 2007
Posts: 1564
Brighton UK
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Posted on Mar 30 2021 04:56 PM
The_Beach_Berserkers wrote:
I did a thorough mic position test today.
My favorite is
1. SM57 close to cloth halfway from center of speaker angled towards the center. This way I get good highs and some lows as well.
The second mic really doesn't add much...
Are you liking how the reverb sounds now?
— Los Fantasticos
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The_Beach_Berserkers
Joined: Jul 01, 2020
Posts: 35
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Posted on Mar 31 2021 06:25 AM
Yes, it sounds great now. Tweaking, noodling and patience...
— Surf, spies, cowboys and aliens. We've got'em all covered...
Listen to
The Beach Berserkers on Bandcamp
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djangodeadman
Joined: Jan 25, 2007
Posts: 1564
Brighton UK
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Posted on Mar 31 2021 12:20 PM
The_Beach_Berserkers wrote:
Yes, it sounds great now. Tweaking, noodling and patience...
Good news.
If you do ever decide to try the Røde again, you might want to start with it some distance away from the speaker. That’s quite a common approach. As you say, experimentation, coupled with a healthy dose of patience is the way to go.
— Los Fantasticos
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Vince_Ray
Joined: Aug 26, 2015
Posts: 252
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Posted on Apr 01 2021 12:16 AM
You mentioned the problem of mic alignment and time issues when recording with two mics. I'm struggling with that. Any advice welcome! I've tried inverting the phase and that seems to make it worse. It took me a while to work out that it was maybe to do with the time it took for the sound to reach the close Sm58 and the distant Se X1. Unfortunately I can't re record as it was a live studio take with a drummer who has a bust arm. Any clues? Thanks
omedjangodeadman wrote:
The_Beach_Berserkers wrote:
Yes, it sounds great now. Tweaking, noodling and patience...
Good news.
If you do ever decide to try the Røde again, you might want to start with it some distance away from the speaker. That’s quite a common approach. As you say, experimentation, coupled with a healthy dose of patience is the way to go.
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djangodeadman
Joined: Jan 25, 2007
Posts: 1564
Brighton UK
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Posted on Apr 01 2021 12:57 AM
Vince_Ray wrote:
You mentioned the problem of mic alignment and time issues when recording with two mics. I'm struggling with that. Any advice welcome! I've tried inverting the phase and that seems to make it worse. It took me a while to work out that it was maybe to do with the time it took for the sound to reach the close Sm58 and the distant Se X1. Unfortunately I can't re record as it was a live studio take with a drummer who has a bust arm. Any clues? Thanks
omedjangodeadman wrote:
The_Beach_Berserkers wrote:
Yes, it sounds great now. Tweaking, noodling and patience...
Good news.
If you do ever decide to try the Røde again, you might want to start with it some distance away from the speaker. That’s quite a common approach. As you say, experimentation, coupled with a healthy dose of patience is the way to go.
What are you recording to?
If it’s a DAW, you should be able to align the two recordings by simply moving one of them until it aligns to the other by eye. There will probably also be a setting that allows you to advance or delay a track by a certain amount. The distant mic track should be delayed by around 1ms for each foot of distance from the close mic, so move it forward by that amount. Only your ears can tell you if it sounds any better, but if you’re unhappy with the recording, it’s worth a try. You may find that the delay between the two mics actually enhances the sound.
If you’ve recorded to tape, however, I think you’re stuck with what you have recorded.
— Los Fantasticos
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Vince_Ray
Joined: Aug 26, 2015
Posts: 252
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Posted on Apr 01 2021 01:13 AM
Thanks mate, although you confirmed my worst fears that I'm stuck with what I have. I work on a Zoom R16 and kinda treat it like tape. It's OK though, I'll probably choose one of the mics and work with that. Stereo? Who needs it!
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djangodeadman
Joined: Jan 25, 2007
Posts: 1564
Brighton UK
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Posted on Apr 01 2021 02:34 AM
Vince_Ray wrote:
Thanks mate, although you confirmed my worst fears that I'm stuck with what I have. I work on a Zoom R16 and kinda treat it like tape. It's OK though, I'll probably choose one of the mics and work with that. Stereo? Who needs it!
It’s really a case of trial and error, I think.
— Los Fantasticos
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