Synchro, i agree with you about the twang sound being a popular sound of the day. We had a very successful guitarist in Germany, Ricky King, who played every song in the world as a guitar instrumental with his „Golden Guitar Sound“. A lot of times people in Germany think of him when they hear surf or related stuff.

As far as swing goes: i agree that anthrax sounds stiffer than bill frisell, but both versions use straight eight notes...which is not a swing feel in musical language. Ac/dc, Led Zeppelin and Van Halen on the other side were quite fond of shuffle grooves in certain songs... which raises the question if they‘re rock or rock‘n roll...

Of course, they would say it‘s not jazz

To another musician, I just say "surf", not surf rock, surf music, or anything else. But non-musicians frequently get confused and will think I'm talking about actual surfing, so "Surf Music" at least points them to the fact that I'm talking about music.

Frankly, I don't recall hearing the term "Surf Music" back then. In 1962, if you had mentioned the the "Surf Music" we would likely have assumed that you were referring to Jan & Dean or The Beach Boys. We were aware of the songs we think of as Surf Music today, at the time, but I don't recall these being called Surf Music.

Yeah, I'm probably around your age - definitely around for the first wave, although nowhere near So Cal - and that is my experience also. Even today, to most mainstreamers, if I say I play "surf music", probablly the most common reaction is to say, "Oh, I love the Beach Boys!" - I'm sure most of you can hear the inflections, as you must have heard this too.

Beyond any of this, genre labels are primarily for marketing music. There are no "pure" styles - people have been mixing styles forever, just as cultures have been mixing forever. I think the main reason names stick is because people eventually start associating specific sounds with genre labels. I think the marketeers and to some extent music writers have more to do with this than anything.

So IMO it's not worth getting tangled up in our shorts worrying about what exact term people use to describe what is, essentially, instrumental music driven by prominent, reverb-drenched guitar. Hell, just think, it could be "country music", where the term has essentially been completely appropriated by what is way too often a vapid mix of teen-pop, hip-hop, and southern rock.

To me, the only real value in trying to enforce any type of restriction on what music is accepted under the name "surf" is to prevent totally unrelated approaches to music from commandeering the term. Right now, I don't think there's much danger of that. But if things ever got to the point where it ever went seriously mainstream and there was a lot of money in it, look out! The glommers and wannabees would try to exploit it - they'll exploit anything if there's $$$ in it.

The Delverados - surf, punk, trash, twang - Facebook
Chicken Tractor Deluxe - hardcore Americana - Facebook and Website
The Telegrassers - semi-electric bluegrass/Americana - Facebook

Tikidog wrote:

Synchro, i agree with you about the twang sound being a popular sound of the day. We had a very successful guitarist in Germany, Ricky King, who played every song in the world as a guitar instrumental with his „Golden Guitar Sound“. A lot of times people in Germany think of him when they hear surf or related stuff.

As far as swing goes: i agree that anthrax sounds stiffer than bill frisell, but both versions use straight eight notes...which is not a swing feel in musical language. Ac/dc, Led Zeppelin and Van Halen on the other side were quite fond of shuffle grooves in certain songs... which raises the question if they‘re rock or rock‘n roll...

Living in the US, we were not particularly aware of the Shadows. I was aware that there was a band in the U.K. called the Shadows, but I don’t recall ever hearing anything they did. Had they been promoted in the US, I suspect that they would have been popular and well received. There’s a video of The Ventures on the Dick Clark show in 1960, playing Walk Don’t Run and the similarities to The Shadows was striking. They did the dance steps, and very much looked the part. Apache was very popular in the US, but we heard The Ventures version when it was played on the radio.

There were, of course, a lot of other artists around the globe, playing various songs with the same basic treatment. A relatively inexpensive Fender guitar, a bright amp and either reverb, or skillfully used delay devices, made this sound accessible to a lot of people, and it was expressed in a lot of Different places. In many cases, no one defined it much beyond calling it Instrumental.

Dick Dale is quoted as having said that the sound of his cranked up Showman and his Tube Reverb reminded him of the sound of Surfing. This lends credence to the association with surfing, but had there not been Endless Summer, the genre could just as well have been associated with something else. The driving, pulsing sound matches well the excitement of many other fast paced activities, such as auto racing, skydiving, you name it.

el_pablo wrote:

I wonder if you asked the question on a jazz forum if Bill Frisell's version of Pipeline is jazz, what the reaction would be? I dare say you'd get all kinds of arguments for and against...

That’s interesting. Bill Frisell and I both are students of Dale Bruning, a Denver area Jazz guitarist. My lesson was scheduled directly after his, so I would get to hear a 19 year old Bill Frisell as he was taking his lesson. Even then, he was strikingly good. We also share several influences, such as Johnny Smith and Jim Hall. None of these people, Bruning, Smith or Hall, we’re anywhere close to Surf players and Johnny Smith was actually a bit offended by what The Ventures did with Walk, Don’t Run.

Old school Jazz guitarists were not friendly to Rock n’ Roll, for the most part. The last time I saw Johnny Smith was at a guitar show in Denver. We were somewhat acquainted having some mutual friends and Johnny Used to work on my Johnny Smith Model Gibson. He let me traipse along with him while he toured the guitar show. He was all but invisible to most of the people there, as they played Rock and would never have dreamed that this unassuming man walking in their midst was the composer of Walk, Don’t Run. As we toured the show, we heard the same tortured Rock licks emanating from the various displays. I asked him what he thought when he heard these distorted guitars and he replied: “I think I’m glad it’s not me”, with a sly smile.

Bill Frisell can take his place among old school jazzers and fit right in. Being an old school jazzer myself, I have a lot of respect for him. Jazz players of my generation, such as Frisell and Pat Metheny, grew up in a time when Rock n’ Roll was everywhere. I relate to Frisell and Metheny’s situation, albeit on a much smaller scale, because even though I’m musically conservative and appreciate the generation of Jazz players that came before me, I also relate to twang and reverb, in a way that Johnny Smith or Jim Hall probably never would. When I’m playing Jazz, I use more reverb than my musical antecedents, in fact using reverb and delay much like Pat Metheny’s sound, for pretty much everything, just adding more reverb for Surf.

This leads me to the point where I must admit to at least a degree of a conundrum. In the context of the Jazz guitarists I listened to, Jim Hall, Dale Bruning, Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, etc. Frisell’s Pipeline doesn’t really fit in. It reminded me more of something I might hear from the Steve Miller Band, or the Grateful Dead. Yet I know for a fact that Frisell has the Jazz chops to pull off anything he wanted to, and this was his expression of the music he grew up with, played as Jazz.

So Jazz, or Surf for that matter, is in the ear of the listener and, no less importantly, it’s in the intentions of the person(s) arranging and playing the music. IMO, broad classifications make sense, but setting firm boundaries is to invite debate. If Kai Winding wanted to express some Surf songs on an album, that was his approach to Surf. Liking it or not is a matter of individual taste. When I play Jazz, I sneak in a lot of Chet Atkins’ ideas, and that’s my take on Jazz guitar. When I play Surf, in a trio with an open sound, it may lack the sonic presence of a 4 or 5 piece band, but I like that lonely sound of a guitar bass and drums. I can call it whatever I wish, but having it accepted as such in up to the audience.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

Last edited: Jun 12, 2020 07:54:51

Tikidog wrote:

ok guys, it seems my point doesn‘t come across.
i‘m happy that there are a few like minded people who see things more from a musical point of view than from a style description point of view.
i didn‘t want to start another discussion about the right term for the style we all love. i just wanted to say: all the stuff is pretty related and not worth to get angry or aggressive with each other. after looking at a few facebook groups today, i have the feeling i won‘t get heard by too many people with this opinion....so be it.

one last try to make everybody think about strict style divisions:

Surf vs. Punk vs. Metal vs. Jazz vs. Easy listening vs. Instrumental rock

same chords, same melody, looks nearly the same in Notation....hmmm

gimme an argument why it‘s not the same

Why do you want an argument? Music is to be enjoyed, not argued about.

http://thewaterboarders.bandcamp.com/

el_pablo wrote:

I wonder if you asked the question on a jazz forum if Bill Frisell's version of Pipeline is jazz, what the reaction would be? I dare say you'd get all kinds of arguments for and against...

As a serious jazz player who also frequents jazz guitar forums, I can tell you I am pretty sure many responses would be that it's NOT jazz, even though Frisell is a highly esteemed jazz guitarist. I like a lot of his work, but his Pipeline didn't do much for me as Jazz or Surf.

Synchro, I found your view enlightening. I was shocked when I learned Walk, Don't Run was written by Johnny Smith (this is the guy that recorded the famous version of Moonlight in Vermont?). When you think about it jazz is most closely related to improvisation, which is kind of the antithesis of Surf, yet there are still connections.

BTW, I think if anyone on those jazz guitar forums knew I preferred playing surf, I'm sure my membership would be revoked.

DaveMudgett wrote:

To another musician, I just say "surf", not surf rock, surf music, or anything else. But non-musicians frequently get confused and will think I'm talking about actual surfing, so "Surf Music" at least points them to the fact that I'm talking about music.

Frankly, I don't recall hearing the term "Surf Music" back then. In 1962, if you had mentioned the the "Surf Music" we would likely have assumed that you were referring to Jan & Dean or The Beach Boys. We were aware of the songs we think of as Surf Music today, at the time, but I don't recall these being called Surf Music.

Yeah, I'm probably around your age - definitely around for the first wave, although nowhere near So Cal - and that is my experience also. Even today, to most mainstreamers, if I say I play "surf music", probablly the most common reaction is to say, "Oh, I love the Beach Boys!" - I'm sure most of you can hear the inflections, as you must have heard this too.

Beyond any of this, genre labels are primarily for marketing music. There are no "pure" styles - people have been mixing styles forever, just as cultures have been mixing forever. I think the main reason names stick is because people eventually start associating specific sounds with genre labels. I think the marketeers and to some extent music writers have more to do with this than anything.

So IMO it's not worth getting tangled up in our shorts worrying about what exact term people use to describe what is, essentially, instrumental music driven by prominent, reverb-drenched guitar. Hell, just think, it could be "country music", where the term has essentially been completely appropriated by what is way too often a vapid mix of teen-pop, hip-hop, and southern rock.

To me, the only real value in trying to enforce any type of restriction on what music is accepted under the name "surf" is to prevent totally unrelated approaches to music from commandeering the term. Right now, I don't think there's much danger of that. But if things ever got to the point where it ever went seriously mainstream and there was a lot of money in it, look out! The glommers and wannabees would try to exploit it - they'll exploit anything if there's $$$ in it.

Those are some great points, Dave.

Genre bending has been happening since about .00000001 femto-seconds after the second genre was created. Rock n' Roll and Country have swapped DNA for the last 65 years. The classic Surf guitar sound isn't far from what was popular in country music at the time. Country players used Jaguars and Mosrites played through clean amps with lots of reverb. My old Jaguar could out-Tele most Teles.

But cross pollination is the norm. Klezmer bands play Rock, Rock bands play Klezmer. Country bands play Rock, Rock bands play Country. Polka bands play durn-near everything. Jazz musicians play durn-near everything. BTW, Surf artists have been known to stray from the genre. Dick Dale did Spanish Kiss, Star of David (basically Klezmer), Who Can He Be?, Oh Marie (A typical early '60s Rock n' Roll rework of an old Standard). Never On Sunday sounds suspiciously similar to Herb Alpert and the TJB, including a marimba player.

Genre labels are probably more important to marketing people than to anyone else. People play what they play. Dean Martin was a classic crooner, and he was known to do some Italian tunes, but he also did some Country. The Ventures played almost anything, but they did a great job on Surf tunes. Musicians want to sell records, and the smart ones play whatever sells, putting their own twist on it.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

DaveMudgett wrote:

Criticism is fine. Ridiculing is fine. Heated, opinionated discussion is fine. HATE is a strong word, and does not necessarily relate to the terms above. A lot of times is is used as a strawman, a defence mechanism.

My take -

Criticism - fine. Intelligent criticism is even better - the world needs more intelligent criticism.

Opinionated discussion even to the point of heated - OK, but I think one better take John Wayne's admonition - "Smile when you say that, Mister!"

Ridiculing - on a written, world-readable platform, why isn't criticism and opinionated discussion enough? Why does anybody need to go to ridicule? My experience is that ridicule engenders a like response and things tend to escalate from there, and there you go.

Hate - I do agree the word is overused. But not everybody is capable of controlling their emotions. My experience is that ramping up angry discussions tends to lead to very bad results.

Why do you want an argument? Music is to be enjoyed, not argued about.

I think he's using the term in the sense of "logical argument". I basically agree that arguing about this kind of stuff is fruitless. But people are gonna do it anyway, and as long as that's the case, it would be good to try to get such arguments to follow down logical/reasonable paths. My opinion.

I moderate another guitar forum. Ridicule is not welcome. We can have differing opinions, but attacking someone for disagreeing is not going to help anything. Keeping a forum on an even keel requires nipping problems in the bud.

raylinds wrote:

el_pablo wrote:

I wonder if you asked the question on a jazz forum if Bill Frisell's version of Pipeline is jazz, what the reaction would be? I dare say you'd get all kinds of arguments for and against...

As a serious jazz player who also frequents jazz guitar forums, I can tell you I am pretty sure many responses would be that it's NOT jazz, even though Frisell is a highly esteemed jazz guitarist. I like a lot of his work, but his Pipeline didn't do much for me as Jazz or Surf.

Synchro, I found your view enlightening. I was shocked when I learned Walk, Don't Run was written by Johnny Smith (this is the guy that recorded the famous version of Moonlight in Vermont?). When you think about it jazz is most closely related to improvisation, which is kind of the antithesis of Surf, yet there are still connections.

BTW, I think if anyone on those jazz guitar forums knew I preferred playing surf, I'm sure my membership would be revoked.

It's the same Johnny. He moved from New York to Colorado circa 1960. His wife started a music store, Johnny Smith Music, and anyone could walk into his store and find themselves face-to-face with Johnny smith, himself. He was not all that outgoing, but if he saw that you played Jazz, he was more talkative. I would never claim that we were friends, but he recognized me and was always pretty friendly, after the first visit or two. He also setup my guitar for free and it sounded just like his own Johnny Smith. He was quite interested in making sure that any Smith model was up to his specs.

I've been on at least one Jazz Guitar forum and ended up leaving. There was one guy that was the self-appointed keeper of the True Faith and he would stalk my posts, arguing over minutiae, just to argue. When I called him on it, he accused me not being willing to accept the challenge of intellectual rigor. Intellectual or not, I'm smart enough not to waste time arguing with people like that.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.

You guys are way too serious.

Tikidog wrote:

so back to the original question:
why do these style separations have to be discussed in such an over serious, often aggressive and sometimes hateful way, when these styles are so close together?

if the ventures are not a surf band, why can‘t you name a few arguments that prove your thesis? and what‘s so terrible, if someone thinks they are and has a few good arguments for that? who gets hurt by that?

this is what i‘d like to know.

I recall that the Ventures never called themselves a Surf band, but they probably were seeking a larger audiences, and they were probably hoping to avoid being pigeon-holed into any category. Nonetheless, they were good at the Surf Music they played.

Over time, I’ve noticed that I’ve become more accepting of the opinions of others. I could come up with all sorts of arguments about where to set the boundaries, but someone else could come up with equally valid points to set the boundaries elsewhere. Eventually, it reduces to personal opinion, and yours is as valid as mine. All I can say is that it’s fine to have strong opinions, but we can be diplomatic about it.

The artist formerly known as: Synchro

When Surf Guitar is outlawed only outlaws will play Surf Guitar.